For what it's worth.

[babybubba]

 
Good investigation, bigboy.  In any event, the forum software is pretty good at telling me when an account is a duplicate for the same user ( ) and that does not appear to be the case with denflo60 and Mr. Harpo.
 
Good, then to ease Shadow's worried mind please do the same investigation between harpo & me. Be advised that regardless what you post the worry wart will still assert that you are either me or I'm paying you to post things he won't enjoy.

[Webman]

You are not harpo.  I thought I already stated that and I apologize if I did not. 

[babybubba]

Thank you--I must have missed it.

[denflo60]

All:   For info I am a retired auto exec with an EE undergrad, a master degree in materials and an MBA with majors in econ and finance.  I am not a mathematician.  To me some of the same math is practiced in both gambling and investment and since both subjects fascinate me I oft time mentally tie both together rightly or not.  I still would like to know what part of what I said was similar to whatever this Harpo said.     Denny  

[bigboy]

All:   For info I am a retired auto exec with an EE undergrad, a master degree in materials and an MBA with majors in econ and finance.  I am not a mathematician.  To me some of the same math is practiced in both gambling and investment and since both subjects fascinate me I oft time mentally tie both together rightly or not.  I still would like to know what part of what I said was similar to whatever this Harpo said.     Denny   
 
 
Please accept my apologies for that confusion. It would be best for you to review Harpo777 posts, as they are a bit long. Click on Memberlist, enter name, review posts. Again, very sorry for the inference. Please feel free to continue posting.

[denflo60]

All:  I went back and read the Harpo777 post file.  Fascinating, but I wish people would not malign others in forums, but I guess you just can't prevent it.  
 
I would just add the following.  Originally in discussions like this I used the term random positive and negative cycles.  According to Dan Paymar the word "cycles" already connotes a certain type of event in Video poker, so Dan suggested the word streakiness instead of cycles.  Based on my experiences there is positive and negative random streakiness in video poker. Whether it is a natural fallout of a pseudo random number generator or due to some preplanned program I could care less.   To me, these are the short run potential "Black Swan" periods.   The only questions in my mind are 1.  While you are in a period of positive or negative streakiness, can you determine you are there?  2.  If you can't nothing is lost,. but if you can there is something to be gained by modifying your play by either/all of amount wagered, number of hands played, type of game played.  If/when question 1 is answered all else will fall out regarding this kind of debate. 
All in all, an open debate, without sarcasm, should be encouraged in VP forums if we are trying to improve our intellectual knowledge of VP.  If you want to be the VP equivalent of Ed Thorp in blackjack as the first card counter in order to just make more money, you answer the above questions and keep the results to yourself until someone writes a book on it and jump starts the VP publications industry again. 
As a retired businessman, I can't believe there isn't a body of knowledge on this subject already known to IGT locked in the same safe as the Coca Cola formula.      Denny   

[bigboy]

1.  While you are in a period of positive or negative streakiness, can you determine you are there?  2.  If you can't nothing is lost,. but if you can there is something to be gained by modifying your play by either/all of amount wagered, number of hands played, type of game played.  If/when question 1 is answered all else will fall out regarding this kind of debate. 
you answer the above questions and keep the results to yourself .As a retired businessman, I can't believe there isn't a body of knowledge on this subject already known to IGT locked in the same safe as the Coca Cola formula.      Denny   
 
You have made 2 good points that have been echoed in the past on this forum: A. If someone has the answer to the question, there are thousands upon thousands of v.p. machines available for exploitation/profit. B. The knowledge would not remain a secret as there are other manufacturers beyond just IGT, additionally you have companies like Action and L.E.D. whom "design" games for companies like IGT. BTW- Other non-gaming related entities(specifically,Walker Digital), continue to recieve patents from the USPTO. Why would they bother if the machines were under a "proprietery lock and key"??

[babybubba]

[QUOTE=denflo60]1.  While you are in a period of positive or negative streakiness, can you determine you are there?  2.  If you can't nothing is lost,. but if you can there is something to be gained by modifying your play by either/all of amount wagered, number of hands played, type of game played.  If/when question 1 is answered all else will fall out regarding this kind of debate. 
you answer the above questions and keep the results to yourself .As a retired businessman, I can't believe there isn't a body of knowledge on this subject already known to IGT locked in the same safe as the Coca Cola formula.      Denny   
 
You have made 2 good points that have been echoed in the past on this forum: A. If someone has the answer to the question, there are thousands upon thousands of v.p. machines available for exploitation/profit. B. The knowledge would not remain a secret as there are other manufacturers beyond just IGT, additionally you have companies like Action and L.E.D. whom "design" games for companies like IGT. BTW- Other non-gaming related entities(specifically,Walker Digital), continue to recieve patents from the USPTO. Why would they bother if the machines were under a "proprietery lock and key"??[/QUOTE]
 
The main reasons why those capable of detecting the cycles don't take advantage of them is because of arrogance & ignorance. "Advantage players" would never accept that they're pre-programmed in because it would completely destroy their theoretical approach to the game and would mean many less hours of play--which we know they would find distasteful because they really haven't much else planned. The game, in short, has taken over their lives.
 
Most others simply won't get up and move from a machine unless their spouse or child called with an emergency....and even that's not a sure thing. I've used my knowledge mostly of the cold cycles to improve my profitting. When a machine is hot I just play through it until my goal is met and stop since you just don't know when that will change anyway. The math people have their "simple" explanations of the cycles as being "natural" and some certainly are. Beyond that is what separates their denial from my success.

[shadowman]

 The only questions in my mind are 1.  While you are in a period of positive or negative streakiness, can you determine you are there? 
 
No. Random streakiness is only known after the fact. If the machines are random you can never know when your luck will change. To accurately project future results requires that the probabilities are not always the same. For that to be true then the machines would not be random. So, if you ACCEPT that the machines are random then there is nothing more to say or do.
 
2.  If you can't nothing is lost,. but if you can there is something to be gained by modifying your play by either/all of amount wagered, number of hands played, type of game played.  If/when question 1 is answered all else will fall out regarding this kind of debate. 
 
The answer to question 1 has been known for years. There is no debate. It all gets back to whether you accept the machines are random. The only way to reach your goal is to assume the machines are NOT random and try to figure out a pattern. Good luck.
 
As a retired businessman, I can't believe there isn't a body of knowledge on this subject already known to IGT locked in the same safe as the Coca Cola formula.      Denny   
 
IGT does protect the pRNG algorithm and source code because knowledge of the actual algorithm could potentially be used in conjuction with high speed computers to predict future results. However, I assume you're not really suggesting cheating.
 
There is nothing complicated about randomness. Did you read my post on flipping coins 100 times? Try it and see how often you can determine when you're in a head or tail streak. Try to predict your next flip. If you can do that then maybe you can figure out a way to beat VP as well.
 

[Eduardo]

I flipped a coin 20 times and got 14 heads. Then put it in the refrigerator for 20 minutes and tried again. Only 9 heads.  I think hot and cold might be possible but let me try once more when it is warm again so i can know for sure.