Video Poker Forum

Since we are starting a new year I am going to bring up a subject that I am sure has been discussed before. Maybe not in the exact same context but in light of the fact that casinos are lowering pay tables almost everywhere. I would love to hear from everyone. The mathematicians, the old pros, and the recreational players.

My home property is Horseshoe Bossier City but during the course or the year I also play at the CET properties in Vegas, Atlantic City, Tahoe, and others. What got me thinking about bringing up this topic is that there is one machine in particular at my home property that you can play for as little as $5 ($1 level max bet). I always throw a few hundred at this machine every time I go there but it is either rigged or something else is going on with it because I always lose on this machine. I play it because it has 8/5 Bonus Poker on it with a $5000 jackpot if you hit the royal. On the surface if you put 100% of your faith in the math you would think that you could go there and camp out on this machine and churn out tons of tier credits at little of no cost or perhaps win on it every now and then.

This machine is in their HLR and I know it has been there at least the last couple of years. Horseshoe BC is a fairly busy property and there is not a shortage of avid VP players there. But most of the time this machine is available. It used to be hard to get on. I have talked to quite a few of the other players and they all said that they had played it but had similar results to what I had.

I am beginning to wonder if pay tables matter as much as they used to. With a computer you can do anything. So maybe even though this particular machine pays 5 for a flush and 8 for a full house and 5000 credits for a royal flush I am wondering if this machine is programmed to give out less than the alotted amount of flushes, full houses, and 4 OAK's that you would expect if the RNG was operating as it should be.

My best hit this past year was playing STP DDB with a 7/5 pay table. So in light of all this I am perplexed and am wondering if any of you have stumbled upon machines that either seem like they either don't let you win or surprise you by paying back better than you were expecting. I have been playing VP for about 10 years and have read several books and know to look for 9/6 pay tables but I am beginning to wonder if there is something more to it than that. I am coming across more and more people that sincerely believe that I should quit paying attention to the pay tables. And they have got me beginning to wonder as well.

If there is more to it than the paytables, then casinos and machine manufacturers are breaking Louisiana and many other state laws. But probably half of this forum seriously believes this is what happening. I don't, but I can't entirely rule illegal activity either. But if a casino was bothering to break the law, why even offer a 7/5 DDB paytable somewhere else in the casino? And your best hit being on a 7/5 DDB STP doesn't strike me as too odd unless it was on nickels or pennies. Or you only played that game once all year... STP can lead to huge hits at times, especially with DDB.

I've probably mentioned this before but since it relates to your question here we go again. The casino nearest my location was packed all the time and just getting time on a vp machine wasn't the easiest thing to do. The casino put a new bank of 10 vp machines, 5 in a row back to back. The machines looked a little different than what you normally see but they had all the same games and same pay tables. At the time all I played was $2 denomination DDB, the machines offered up $1, $2 and $5 denominations. The machines were packed with players from day 1, anyway after about 6 months no one would go near those machines. I had only hit one hand pay and remember seeing one other person hit one, the machines just wouldn't let go of the big hands. Shortly after that the machines were taken out and replaced with the standard vp machines.

Good pay tables do not guarantee anything, they only let you play longer with the same money giving you more chances at a jackpot.  If you are an occasional player it is very unlikely that you would see any real difference.  You may hit a string of jackpots on a 7/5 machine and nothing on a 9/6 machine.  Odds are much more significant to a player who plays 800 hands an hour for days or weeks at a time.  When we go on long video poker vacations, we can really tell the difference in good tables and bad.  Will I play max coins on a machine with bad pay tables?  Yes, if I have no choice but I won't play them for long.  The answer to casinos that are reducing their odds is to play less or play short coin.  Knowledgeable players are figuring this out.  That is one reason why  the high limit rooms in many casinos are empty. Everyone bases their opinions on their own experiences, so others may have different views.  I don't think newer machines are intentionally  rigged, but I do think there are changes in the way these machines pay out caused by the speed of the new chips and new software routines.  The RNG is legal and will pass inspection, but the jackpots seem to be bunched with very long dry spells in between.  This has the affect of busting more players and leads to thoughts of a bad machine or outright tampering.  If I found a machine that was so bad I thought it was unfair, I would definitely avoid playing it. 

Looks like a lot of us are wondering the same thing. My experience at the Borgata in AC, where I play once a week is that I believe the older VP machines that have been there for awhile are fair and random. The new server based games, I'm not sure of, although I have hit royals and have seen other jackpots hit on them. They don't seem to produce a fair number of quads.

Funny thing about bad machines, I have witnessed just the opposite a few times. For about 3-4 months there were three five dollar machines at the Tampa Hard Rock that were just phenomenal.  I always played $20 a machine single coin.  Four times I hit a $1,000 quad deuce and once hit a max coin wild royal on the next hand for an additional $625.  I never walked away without at least one $125 wild royal.   Last year I made over $4k on those three machines alone.   They eventually cooled off and I quit playing them.  It runs both ways sometimes.

I need a run like that. Maybe 2016 will start out hot.

I'm a believer in a hot machines.  I've seen it too many times to be skeptical.   Don't know why, but it happens....

@Phil: although I've had my share of "hot" and "cold" runs, there is nothing to base it on except speculation. I've had some great outings and absolute bomb outings. I can say that the newer machines seem cold all the time with an occassional hit to seem up and up. I have no basis for this observation.

I sure don't know all the answers, I just report what I see.   If I find a hot machine you better believe I'm going to play it.  If I am convinced some machines aren't fair  I'm not going near the place.  Randomness isn't always logical. I guess that's why they call it gambling.   Anyone who thinks video poker can be beaten with math alone is in for a nasty surprise.