Can VP machines be programmed for low return?

[backsider]

[QUOTE=grammie] I play VP and slots at the Hollywood and Belterra casinos in Southern IN.  It is in my opinion that all of the machines (slots and VP) are remotely controlled of loose or tight plays.  If you listen to the sounds of the casino, you can hear the roar of machines picking up and hitting more often then it will quiet down and you will not be able to hit your butt with both hands.  I imagine a zoned water sprinkler system, one zone kicks in for a few seconds, then as it slows back down, the next zone picks up.  Like I said, it's only my opinion, but I think the casinos have control over this.  

Welcome to the forum. My guess is you may be hearing a cooling fan come on. I often play the same "older" machine for hours and often after a few hours of constant play or hitting the keys to quickly it will get slower, freeze up until the fan comes on. In a few minutes it cools down and I"m at it again. Like shadowman says, "why would a casino risk losing it license?" They make enough money including off VP from normal play.

[/QUOTE]

Why would a casino risk losing its license? Are you kidding? Why did Countrywide risk losing its ability to operate? Why did Goldman-Sacs risk its reputation? Why did nearly every major bank risk losing its,customers? Why did Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac risk everything? Why did so many executives from some of the most successful American businesses risk going to jail with all their corruption and ensuing coverups? MONEY! But oh I get it now shadowman. Casinos are run by the most ethical of people, and every casino has higher revenues than Wall Street.

Wake up, smell the rotten eggs, and leave the wet dreams behind.

[FloridaPhil]

If I thought Video Poker machines were rigged, I would quite playing them.  We've played VP in casinos from Vegas to Winsor Canada to Florida and practically everywhere in between.  We haven't seen anything that would be out of the range of a RNG.  Come to think of it, nothing is out of that range...   Bring on the Royals!  

[backsider]

If I thought Video Poker machines were rigged, I would quite playing them.  We've played VP in casinos from Vegas to Winsor Canada to Florida and practically everywhere in between.  We haven't seen anything that would be out of the range of a RNG.  Come to think of it, nothing is out of that range...   Bring on the Royals!  



But Phil, isnt that the way the riggers would want a player to think?

How would you or anybody else ever even come close to being able to tell what if any hanky panky is going on within the number generators? You cant, and people who blurted how their results are pretty close to where theyd expect to see them, as proof, are proving nothing. After my big win earlier this year, I can also say my lifetime results are where expected. So what.

People play and disregard possibilities because they only want to play and they dont want any disruptive thoughts spoiling the party. People play at Indian casinos and swear theyre fair because if they had any other feelings they couldnt play at them, and you know what taking video poker away from some people does.Me, I dont really care one way or the other because I accept whatever the way it is, it is, and if I want to be entertained then I have fun and take it up the ying yang and thats it. But some people..some people are fanatics about it and allow themselves to get all caught up in the fantasy of the unknown, enough so that they come across a statement or two that they want to believe and they run with it.

Everybody has their own ways.

[DaBurglar]

The question is "Can a machine be programed for low return?"  The answer obviously is YES, its a computer/machine. which means it does what people tell it or set it up to do.  Thats the short answer..... What is really always on everyones mind is "IS THIS VP MACHINE THAT I AM PLAYING ON THE LEVEL OR IS IT GOBBLING MY MONEY AT A RATE IN EXCESS OF WHAT NORMAL MATH EXPECTATIONS WOULD DICTATE?"   The answer to this question really is: WHO KNOWS???    I personally do believe that, in any given casino, the odds are probably that the VP machine I choose to play is in fact legit, But I am almost equally certain that there are SOME VP machines in SOME casinos that are not totally kosher, that they are "adjusted" (poor choice of word perhaps) to take a typical 99% expected return for a player and reduce it to something lower (what that lower level exactly is I obviously dont know, but I have played enough over the past 20 years to know that I have encountered machines that simply OBLITERATED my bankroll without giving ANYTHING back, and then I sat and watched 2, 3, 4 or more players come right after me and play the same machine and the exact thing befalls them, and it just makes you wonder.) Backsiders comments about wall street banks and all that are a good point to make but obviously dont PROVE anything nor do they indict any casino or anything like that....but his point has validity when people repeat the mantra "WHY WOULD A CASINO CHEAT WHEN THEY ARE GUARANTEED TO MAKE MONEY?"  or "WHY RISK A VALUABLE CASINO GAMING LICENSE?"   come on.....people are the issue here....and people, all people everywhere make choices, some good, some bad and some just downright idiotic and evil.  and the reasons for these choices are as wide and variegated as stars in the sky, but GREED is the most common. Caesars Entertainment Corp is currently in deep crap with its HUGE debt load, and with the gaming market becoming saturated and the economy still on the brink of oblivion, the prospects of paying down that debt are bleak, unless they get everyone working for them to start accepting 40% pay cuts across the board.  Now, would they insititute a corporate policy to "cheat" in order to pay down the debt load?  OF COURSE NOT!   But.... Could a Management-type at one of their individual properties decide to covertly "adjust" say, 15% of his VP machines to payback 93% for obvious reasons?   SURE   And there is no "guarantee" that this would ever be disclosed because thats the nature of conspiracies and crimes and such and such.....PLUS, many employees in a position to know IF such a thing were going on often are bound by a number of nondisclosure and contractual agreements to keep their mouths shut about the business.  Its that simple, not to mention the people in the know are usually the ones BENEFITTING from such activity. Like I said, any given VP machine is much more likely to be Legit than rigged, but it IS possible, even likely that at least a few VP machines are not legit.  And gaming commisions DO NOT examine every goddamn chip in every machine;  in fact this is a LOW priority for today's OVERWORKED and OVERSTRETCHED gaming commision enforcement departments, thats an indisputable fact.  They are more concerned with underage gambling, moneylaundering (with its drug and terrorism relativity), vetting casino executive and employee applications, and other more pressing issues.   random unannounced visits to casinos to check the chips in a few randomly selected games are extremely rare, if at all.

[shadowman]

When someone can lay out a scenario where a casino can replace the chips of a completely separate company's design with some kind of hacked up replacement chip then I'll start to believe you. Until then it is nothing but a bunch of conspiracy nonsense.


 
You'll also need to show how everyone involved is motivated to stay quiet for years and years. Should be interesting.

[DaBurglar]

I am amazed how little people must actually know about the inner workings and hardware composition (and mechanics) of computers; and how amazingly simple and straightforward the typical VP machine is compared to, say, the PC you just typed your last reply upon....replacing a chip is easy if thats what you want to do....Where do they get them?They can easily acquire chips identical or similar to what they are supplied with, how difficult do you think that is for these people?   Years and years and nobody talked?   well first off, I submit that IF (and it is a Big IF, but not an impossible IF) machines have been rigged to pay far less than they should by means other than the paytable, such foul play is a recent phenomena since its only recently that the gaming "industry" has had such widespread financial trouble that they might be tempted to even try to mess with the VP machines.  In 1999-2004 when things were off the hook, I doubt if anyone rigged anything in a casino.   But today, with so much competition and such massive debt and crappy economic projections, well anything is possible.  Casinos today can actually FAIL (*gasp*!)   it is not unfathomable that some, in desperation would pull sh*t like what we are discussing. But I submit this......someone has talked.  As I stated in another thread awhile back, I personally know several people, past and present employees in several casinos.  I know several Vegas Metro Detectives who have shared a lot of insight on the workings of the Nevada gaming Comm.   And from all this I have gleaned that it is possible that some of us have played a machine that was not dealing fair and square. I still personally believe that MOST of my VP machine choices were legit, but on a handful of instances I strongly suspect something might have been up.  I still earned comp points and rooms and all that jazz even on the few machines I thought screwed me, so I am not ready to bail or quit.    But unlike shadoman, I'll never say never

[shadowman]

I am amazed how little people must actually know about the inner workings and hardware composition (and mechanics) of computers; and how amazingly simple and straightforward the typical VP machine is compared to, say, the PC you just typed your last reply upon....replacing a chip is easy if thats what you want to do....

Where do they get them?They can easily acquire chips identical or similar to what they are supplied with, how difficult do you think that is for these people?  
 
Hmmm. There's probably several hundred thousand lines of code. That has to be redone or copied. Then there's the checksum and seals. Having worked with computers for decades I can tell you it isn't as easy as you claim. Gert one little thing wrong and all the techs would notice a difference and start asking questions.
 
Years and years and nobody talked?   well first off, I submit that IF (and it is a Big IF, but not an impossible IF) machines have been rigged to pay far less than they should by means other than the paytable, such foul play is a recent phenomena since its only recently that the gaming "industry" has had such widespread financial trouble that they might be tempted to even try to mess with the VP machines.  In 1999-2004 when things were off the hook, I doubt if anyone rigged anything in a casino.   But today, with so much competition and such massive debt and crappy economic projections, well anything is possible.  Casinos today can actually FAIL (*gasp*!)   it is not unfathomable that some, in desperation would pull sh*t like what we are discussing.
 
There's always been some casinos going bankrupt. Sorry, but it's probably harder today than it's ever been to pull something like this off.
 
But I submit this......someone has talked.  As I stated in another thread awhile back, I personally know several people, past and present employees in several casinos.  I know several Vegas Metro Detectives who have shared a lot of insight on the workings of the Nevada gaming Comm.   And from all this I have gleaned that it is possible that some of us have played a machine that was not dealing fair and square.
 
I still personally believe that MOST of my VP machine choices were legit, but on a handful of instances I strongly suspect something might have been up.  I still earned comp points and rooms and all that jazz even on the few machines I thought screwed me, so I am not ready to bail or quit.  
 
But unlike shadoman, I'll never say never


I never said never. I simply pointed out that it's a lot more difficult than most people think. There's a lot of people that believe the casinos can program the machines at any time to do whatever they want. Not that many people understand that companies like IGT provide the machines and do all the programming. The casinos don't have access to any of it. They would need to reverse engineer the code, get the changed chips installed and have it all appear to their employees that nothing has changed. Far from an easy task.
 
In addition the chances of losing their license they would also risk patent violations,etc. from stealing the code. We're talking serious jail time for anyone involved.


From my viewpoint there's a lot of risk and the reward is the same as simply lowering the return on the games by changing the pay tables, which of course is completely legal and we see happen quite often.

[FloridaPhil]

Here's an interesting side note.   We receive a pile of offers from casinos everyday in the mail.  This always amuses me because we are quarter players (guess we bet a bunch of quarters).  Anyway, the multiple point offers from the Florida Indian casinos always have the following in fine print.  "10X points not valid on Video Poker".  If they are rigging the machines, I would think they would give me as many free lunches as I could eat just to have me play?

[faygo]

This should prove things. 

[DaBurglar]

Here's an interesting side note.   We receive a pile of offers from casinos everyday in the mail.  This always amuses me because we are quarter players (guess we bet a bunch of quarters).  Anyway, the multiple point offers from the Florida Indian casinos always have the following in fine print.  "10X points not valid on Video Poker".  If they are rigging the machines, I would think they would give me as many free lunches as I could eat just to have me play?



  If you read my replies I am not tryng to trash Video Poker playing, Im just urging an open mind and awareness. Your reply above has one big hole in it... SLOTS are exactly what the casino wants you to play so thats why they give you the "10X" bullsh*t....the return on slots is ridiculous, thats one game they definitely dont cheat. But whats happening is we are in the midst of bad times, so people cut back on everything, especially gambling.  they are more value conscious and are forced to be "less stupid" lol That means they may drift from slots to VP, and if the casinos keep dropping the paytables to nothing, even VP wont attract players.  Sooooooo, it might tempt them to screw with the VP machines as a result. its something to think about