CS Basics

[wildman49]

That's wonderful. I think that early max coin royal flush is likely to blame for your enthusiasm.If a royal happens every 40,000 hands on average, then a max coin royal playing CS will happen closer to 1 in 266,000 hands. You got lucky and you're most likely going to hit many one coin royals (an average of 6) while you wait for the next max bet one. Those 1 coin royals are the main thing that makes CS unpalatable to me personally.I know... there are other "premium" hands that are rewarding too. You somehow are okay with completely overlooking royal flushes because they are rare. But the other "premium" hands are also going to happen very infrequently. Most of your premium hands will be hit on single coin bets, simply because you are spending the most time there.Eduardo you are right on, you sure you never played CS before?I played it for 15 months, hit a $4,000 royal and twice $1,000 on  four deuce hits in that time frame. Did have many 1 coin royals but did use CS on 20 coin machines as well playing 5 nickels still keeping the 4000 coin royal and hit them as well. All in all I broke even over the 15 months with free play included.. I am looking at it once agian as max betting getting old.I can't seem to get to the 99.5% payback without free play. In 2017 without free play 98.35% on 99.5% plus machines. I had a ton of free play in 2017 and just not happy with the results.

[FloridaPhil]

I switched to max coin play about 6 months ago.  It's been a blood bath.   One quarter royal and a lot more walking out with empty pockets.  However, my comps and free play have doubled.  At this point I'm torn between max coins and CS.  It's so hard to shake off the depression of hitting a short coin royal.  You are always second guessing yourself.I still use CS for $20 pot shots on the $5 machines.  I hit another $1,000 quad deuce last month.  I haven't hit a short coin royal for $1,250 yet.   It would trigger a hand pay and be pretty embarrassing.  If I ever hit one for $20K, I'll be dancing on the moon. 

[Carcounter]

So will the IRS Phil.

[onemoretry]

I've just had it pointed out to me that the IRS can be spelled out as "theirs".

[FloridaPhil]

Hard to offset $20K in losses playing quarters.   

[olds442jetaway]

Ever try CS with joker kings? At least the Royal pays either 400 or 500 depending on the machine for bet one and if you find the right machine, the Royal with 5 in pays 940 for 1. That is the only time I play CS now days if I can't find or get on my 800 for bet 1 machine on Bonus Deuces spin poker.

[New2vp]

I switched to max coin play about 6 months ago.  It's been a blood bath.   One quarter royal and a lot more walking out with empty pockets.  However, my comps and free play have doubled.  At this point I'm torn between max coins and CS.  It's so hard to shake off the depression of hitting a short coin royal.  You are always second guessing yourself.I still use CS for $20 pot shots on the $5 machines.  I hit another $1,000 quad deuce last month.  I haven't hit a short coin royal for $1,250 yet.   It would trigger a hand pay and be pretty embarrassing.  If I ever hit one for $20K, I'll be dancing on the moon.  I hear that even with the advances in our lifetime, space travel is still prohibitively expensive.Here are the numbers on a 98.91% Deuces Wild $5 machine with CS:CS Expected Gain/Loss between $20,000 royals:  -$60,363.42.  That's not including the $20,000 reimbursement for the royal.  That would reduce the loss to $40,363.  Cycle:  290,343 hands. Max Coin Expected Gain/Loss between $20,000 royals: -$31,799.21.  Again not counting the $20,000 reimbursement for the royal.  Loss reduced to $11,799.  Cycle:  43,423 handsIt may seem cheaper if pot shots are only after wins, but over time these add up.  All the single coin hands with a lower EV eventually accumulate plus they get in the way of getting at that royal.The good news: The surprising fact (to some) is that there is about a 63.2% chance that you will hit the royal before a complete cycle has elapsed (1 - 1/e = 0.6321 for you math types out there).  And you might even hit it if you are up ... or down less than $20,000 over the entire course of going for the royal.   And, of course, there is an approximate 36.8% chance that it will take longer than one cycle.  For example, there is about a 13.5% chance (1/e^2) that it will take longer than two cycles, which would more than double the earlier presented expected losses.  And none of us are getting any younger!The Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky?" quote comes to mind.Of course, this is not an advertisement for or against any particular strategy, game, or methodology.  As you like to say, it is gambling, which is why we're in a casino.  So the following is offered not as mathematical advice, but an alternative since you seem to rotate between bloodbaths induced over the years by CS and those from max coin play.Hard to offset $20K in losses playing quarters.    It is obviously not as likely to get $20K playing quarters as playing $5 coins, but Super Times Pay (or Double Super Times Pay) offers a random multiplier that allows for 5x, 8x, and even 10x payments on Royals and other outcomes.  DSTP has more opportunities for multipliers with the pie-in-the-sky possibility of 20x.  So you can drop down from dollars on standard machines to quarters on STP or DSTP and still get chances at the size of pots that standard dollar machines offer.It costs 20% more for STP and 40% more for DSTP.  With CS, you're actually paying 60% more on average than what a single-coin payment would be.With the 98.91% Deuces game and your rules for switching between single coin and max coin, you are hitting the max button 14.96% of the time.  This can be thought of as applying a 5x multiplier to the single coin payouts on everything but the royal.  With DSTP, the multipliers could be as low as 2x but go up to 20x and they are activated 12.89% of the time.Multipliers are activated by an RNG with STP or DSTP instead of the 4-coin win with CS.  But how do you get wins?  Well, it's still an RNG determining that.  The multiplier streaks would definitely not last as long as they do with CS.  But with DSTP, they will interrupt the non-multiplier streaks more often.  A multiplier will occur 12.89% of the time after a non-multiplier hand as opposed to a win occurring 9.78% of the time with CS triggering a max-coin attempt.If you want to bet more after a win you could add a hand on a multi-hand machine.  Many STP and DSTP machines allow triple play, five play, ten play or more.  Unlike some other games, these allow you to select the number of hands without imposing any penalty like preventing the multiplier feature.  So, you could occasionally increase the number of hands for additional action if desired.  And 12.89% of the time that you do, you will have multiple hands AND a multiplier.What happens if you hit a royal without a multiplier with STP or DSTP?  Well, it's 4000 coins, not 250.  With CS, 4000-coin royals are only possible 15% of time.With STP or DSTP, you put in 20% or 40% extra (1 or 2 coins more than the usual 5 coins) all the time.  With CS, you're putting in 400% more 15% of the time (4 coins more than the usual one coin).  Multiplication makes this work out to an average of 60% more (59.82% in less round numbers).The average multiplier for STP is "only" 4.05 as opposed to the implied 5x CS multiplier and it occurs less often.  The average multiplier is 4.1483 for DSTP.  It's advertised as 4.01, but on average every 225 hands, you get two multipliers added together, so that feature increases the effective average multiplier.  This means that the multiplier is lower than CS's 5x more than 1/2 the time, but not all the time.  A dealt royal with ANY deal multiplier even as low as 2x automatically becomes 20x, a $20,000 quarter royal.  If that happened on a 5-play machine, that could be $100,000 (or $200,000 on 10-play).If you like switching strategies when you change from single coin in CS to max coin, you wouldn't get to do that with STP or DSTP.  The same optimal strategy works whether or not there is a multiplier.  Of course, if that influenced your decision to perhaps hold AK suited in a Deuces Wild game dependent on the multiplier, that would be your choice.Will the adrenaline pump when the multiplier alert sound starts to sound?  I imagine it will be similar to what you feel when you're taking what you call pot shots by playing max coin on a machine that you are not comfortable taking too many max-coin shots on.Will you win with this strategy or will you lose?  No one knows for certain, but odds are that in 6 months your overall results will be negative ... whether you're playing max coin, CS, STP, DSTP, or any other negative game in the house.  Of course, if that 10x or 20x royal comes in, chances are that you might just be up.What are the pay tables and returns that are available with STP or DSTP?  I can't tell you.  You have to decide how much is about pay schedules and how much is about bigger hand pays while playing only quarters (or whatever you decide is the best denomination for you).  One thing to keep in mind.  The STP multipliers add about 0.27% to 0.28% to the base game return and DSTP adds about a full 1/2%.  I think Vman has spoke favorably about this feature in the past.Good luck.  I know you like CS with all its trappings.  It's more fun for you to talk about it and apply your custom playing style than simply picking a different type of machine in the casino and playing it straight up.  And I expect that you will continue switching between some overall policy of CS and then full max coin.Right before posting this, I see you've switched back from quarters to dollars.  I understand.  It is difficult to move down.  Wins at a lower denomination than what you are used to just don't elicit that same excitement.  Not enough endorphins!  But ... if you do decide to play STP or DSTP more often and happen to win (or even lose less by playing quarters), please give me credit.  Just teasing.  Because I definitely don't want the blame if, as expected, the results on negative returning machines actually turns out to be negative!

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=New2VP]As you like to say, it is gambling,
which is why we're in a casino. [/quote]Thank you for the fine analysis.   I have played a little STP in the past.  My personal experience has not been good, but perhaps I didn't play the game long enough.I think the appeal of CS is two fold.  One, it definitely allows you to play longer with your money.  This is useful to a player who's time in front of the machines is limited by how much money they have in their pockets.  Extending play frees up money for pot shots.  Lucky Pot shot wins are what kept me above water during my CS years.   When you are playing negative games, something "lucky" must happen in order to beat the odds. The second advantage is it allows a player to play above his/her bankroll without the risks.   In order to play a 98.9% $5 deuce wild game all day at max coins, you are facing huge financial swings. Using CS, you can pot shot a $5 game with $20.  I limit these to no more than 1-2 an hour.  When you hit a $5 single coin quad deuce for $1,000 you just got paid for a max coin quarter royal flush nine times easier.  Below is one of these "lucky" hits.  On the next hand CS told me to hit the max coin button and I hit a max coin wild royal for $625 more.  As you can see, the second hand had three aces in it.  I was one card away from a $6,000 win from one $20 bill!CS is used for entertainment purposes.    It is not entertaining for me to sit in front of a 9/6 Jacks or Better game playing max coins, counting my comps and praying for a royal no matter how big the wager.  Frankly, that sounds like more like a job to me than entertainment.   If someone else funds a great lifestyle by doing it, no problem.I am glad I was given the opportunity to finally discuss CS openly.  It's not harmful and it's not evil.  It doesn't threaten anyone.  It doesn't assume anyone else is wrong.  It is an alternative Recreational playing option designed to enhance the entertainment value of video poker.  Using it is a personal decision based on what a player wants for their gambling entertainment dollars.

[FAA]

In a normal day's play, I usually have a 50/50 chance of hitting at least one single coin quad deuce for $200.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's key. How many hours and hands? I'm a thousand hands a trip player at best. I usually get my fill at 500. So in JOB if I get a quad I'm thrilled. Yesterday I got four quads in about 200 hands. I broke even. 

[FloridaPhil]

To hit a lot of jackpots you have to play a lot of hands.  The more hands you can play with your money, the more jackpots you will hit.  I average about one quad deuce every 5,000 hands.   For me that's about a full day's play.   Some days you don't hit one, then you will catch back up on double or triple days.   When I was playing quarter CS, it was never a problem to stretch $250 and play all day.   Playing more hands equals more chances.  When you play using CS, some of those hands are going to be lucky at max coins.    Because you are investing single coin 90% of the time, you don't build up huge losses before or after those max coin jackpots.Playing dollar CS all day takes about $500.  A single coin dollar quad deuce pays $200 and a single coin royal pays $250.  The max coin jackpots pay 5 times that much and the royal pays $4,000.  I have had many days where a few max coin $125 wild royals has kept me even.Playing CS is not about winning money, it's about playing longer cheaper.   Most people that have tried it for any decent period of time report they are breaking even with CS.  I think that's a win.  Long term winning using traditional math based VP strategy is about the number of royals you hit.  Hit more than your share, you are a winner.  Hit less and you are a loser.  Winning and losing using CS strategy is about the frequency of all max coin jackpots.   Both are determined by luck.  There is NO strategy that will absolutely guarantee you will be a winner or loser playing VP.    That's why it's called gambling.