CS Basics

[FloridaPhil]

Impressive.  What do these numbers prove?Luck plays a significant role in gambling.  A video poker machine is not an ATM.  If it's legal, it chooses the amount it returns to you at random.   What are the odds a CS max coin jackpot will happen?  What are the odds someone will play their entire lifetime without hitting a royal flush?  What are the odds an individual video poker machine will never spit one out? When we "gamble", we are betting we will be on the right side of the odds calculations.  Nothing guarantees we will win or lose.  For this reason alone, I am a proponent of video poker for Recreational purposes only.  If you are a recreational VP player and CS allows you to experience more "Recreation" for your money, it serves it's purpose.These days I only use CS to play $5 machines and I limit my CS hands to an occasional few.  Truth be known, I hardly ever play a CS $25 hand.  When I do, the excitement of anticipation is worth the cost even if I don't win anything.  Despite this, I have cashed $4,000 in single coin $5 quad deuce tickets.  That alone has put me ahead playing $5 CS for years to come.CS is a Recreational VP option.  It's fun and doesn't cost much to use.  I started this post because a member asked me a question about CS.  I could have blown them off like other forum members have and said they would be an idiot for playing that way, but I didn't.  I answered the man's questions as best I could.   There is nothing to fear from using CS.  Try it.  If it doesn't do what you want it to... Stop.

[Eduardo]

  What are the odds a CS max coin jackpot will happen? A lot less than when playing max coin, as has been described earlier. This is a good question![quote] What are the odds someone will play their entire lifetime without hitting a royal flush?  [/quote]If they play as much as you, close enough to zero that it should not even be discussed alongside meaningful statistics.[quote]What are the odds an individual video poker machine will never spit one out?[/quote] Close enough to zero that it should not even be discussed alongside meaningful statistics.Look... in theory you could flip a coin a million times and never get tails. If you are going to make any meaningful decisions based on the odds of that actually happening, then... well, it falls into this category:

[New2vp]

Impressive.  What do these numbers prove?One could interpret the numbers to say that your expected loss in chasing a $20,000 royal using CS is more than triple the expected loss in chasing the same $20,000 royal just simply playing max coin.  And if you chase it multiple times, your losses will be ever more likely to be more than triple using CS.  Is that what you were looking for?I could also interpret that I can make decisions based on probability and statistics rather than recent personal experiences with any particular betting scheme.  Outside the numbers, I can also predict that whatever method you are using now you will eventually fall out love with it and do something else.  You've stated as much in the forum over the years more than once.  I'm guessing your own analysis has something to do with your own past experience and less to do with number crunching.
Truth be known, I hardly ever play a CS $25 hand.  When I do, the excitement of anticipation is worth the cost even if I don't win anything. 
Despite this, I have cashed $4,000 in single coin $5 quad deuce
tickets.  That alone has put me ahead playing $5 CS for years to come.Impressive.  What do these numbers prove? Oh, sorry, that's supposed to be your line.  Did it sound meaner coming from me than how you intended it when you said it?In determining that you are so far ahead, you are of course also factoring in all the losses that got you there in the first place, including other failed methods that led you down this path, right?  What is the total coin differential on the short-coin royals that you've experienced?  It saved you 4 coins on those hands and cost you 3750 for a net of 3746 coins per short coin royal, right?  3746 multiplied by how many?  Do you see the faulty use of logic in my only focusing on the hands that make my point?  My questions are rhetorical.  I won't be hurt if you don't answer.



































There is nothing to fear from using CS.  Try it.  If it doesn't do what you want it to... Stop.You do understand that one doesn't have to try a betting scheme in order to experience what it is likely to do, right?  And one doesn't have to falsely conclude that if one didn't work a couple times, it must be a bad scheme or if it did that it must be a good one.Maybe that's not clear to everyone.  Here's an example.I recently ventured into high limit and came upon a $2 3-play 7-5 Bonus Poker Ultimate X where someone left multipliers from a dealt full house.  For those who don't know, that would be 3 12x multipliers.  Well, if you work it out, this game is $60 a hand, but only $30 if you "vulture" the multipliers.  $30 per hand is considerably over what I normally play.  I was dealt AK of diamonds along with 3 nondescript cards that I don't remember.  Any pair of Jacks or better, which means any king or ace in the 9 open spots would pay me $120 per for my $30 investment.  Two Pairs on the same line would be $240 per.  Trips $360.  All of these are reasonably possible and any of these (or multiple ones) would make my day.  $480 straights and $600 flushes are possible.  And if you think "excitement of anticipation" is worth something ... and you can multiply quickly in your head ... you could see that I had 3 long shots at a $96,000 royal.  As it turned out I bricked, got nothing but a loss of $30.  And one of the few pictures of a hand paying $0 that I have ever taken.  You can bet that I will not pass such a chance up again just because my recent and only such experience with 3 12x multipliers was a big loss.Vulturing 12x multipliers ... good! ... though I admit it probably feels better if at least one line hits.  Hitting short coin royals in hoping to hit a big max coin royal?  Well, you decide.Phil, best of luck.  Keep workin' it.

[FAA]

your expected loss in chasing a $20,000 royal using CS is more than
triple the expected loss in chasing the same $20,000 royal just simply
playing max coin.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, that is of course precisely the point. Phil is either being facetious or failing to grasp the immensity of this figure. What if I embarked on a CS course to chase the $4,000 RF? A $12,000 beat down sounds way too rich for my blood. Is this about right?

[billryan]

   Phil "invented" a strategy that takes a game you are   likely to be behind, cash wise, in the long run and guarantees you will have no shot at long term profit. He also manages to cut down on comps some 80%.
Some people seem to think that is a good idea.
My neighbors thought having a lunar eclipse party that involved loud celebrating early in the morning on a work day would also be a good idea.
I personally think both are simply stupid.

[FloridaPhil]

I find this discussion entertaining and somewhat humorous.   I can see how someone who enjoys video poker as much as we all seem to can be enthralled by the mathematics of VP.   I find it interesting myself.   From my experience math doesn't mean much to a video poker machine.  I have personally witnessed some of the most mind bending things happen.  I have tried things that shouldn't work and they paid big time.  I have tried things that the experts tell me have a near 100% chance of working and they failed just as much.Perhaps this is because I haven't played long enough?  How long does it take for math to affect my results?  No one has ever answered that question to my satisfaction. Look, CS is a fun way to extend VP play while retaining the possibility of a max coin jackpot.  Bill Ryan just posted that I "guaranteed" using CS would produce a long term profit.  I have never once "guaranteed" any such thing and he knows it.  I did say I made a profit using it over a two year period.  I have also said much of that profit came from "Pot Shots" out of the blue.  I used the savings from CS to make these pot shots.Could someone else duplicate my results?  If they use CS they can play longer with their money.  That is the primary objective of CS and the only thing I know for sure.   What happens after that is up to luck. Mathematics is useful to a VP player.   However, if a player thinks math will "guarantee" to make him/her a VP winner, he/she may be in for a nasty surprise.  I asked Bob Dancer this question myself and he told me nothing is guaranteed in life or VP.  I agree with him totally.    All the mathematical formulas in the world won't guarantee to make you a winner or a loser in VP.There is no reason to discuss CS any further.  It exists.   If you play on this website, you can try it for free.  I hardly use it anymore for two reasons.  First, I made the financial commitment to up my bankroll so I can play max coins all the time.  It  now takes 3-4 times more money for me to play all day.   Do I win more?  Too early to tell and I can't tell you how long will it take me to find out.   Second, I earn more comps playing max coins.  Whatever strategy I use, I am not going to believe my results were earned, I got lucky. 

[Jstark]

There's no such thing as luck. Its a made up term to describe rare events thay happen to a person.

[FloridaPhil]

Whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing.   The RNG in a video poker machine RANDOMLY selects numbers. The RNG cycles millions of times in a fraction of a second.  It doesn't know math.  It can pick the same numbers 20 times in a row or never again.  You can use mathematics to determine the "odds" that an event will happen.  In these calculations there is always room for all possible events.  Where you fall in the results of these calculations during the time you play is "luck".  Six Bob Dancer's walk into a casino to play a $100,000 video poker progressive.  They are all skilled and experienced exactly the same.  One wins the progressive and the others don't. That's luck in action....Some will say all six Bob Dancers will be net winners over their lifetime.   Math will tell you this may not be the case because a human lifetime is limited opening the door to the possibility that some will fail.  If you risk money in a video poker machine, you are "gambling".   An intelligent person knows this and accepts what happens as part of the game. Using mathematics to assist you in selecting the best VP games and to provide you with optimal hand strategy is a proven way to improve your financial results.  Anyone who uses CS is not motivated by math.  They are motivated by being able to play longer with the same money without giving up the possibility of a max coin jackpot.  They should know the odds of a long term positive result is better playing max coins on a net positive video poker game.  If the trade off is worth it, CS may be their choice.Note: I used the name "Bob Dancer" in this example because this name is associated with skilled perfect VP play.   It has nothing whatsoever to do with any actual person.

[FAA]

I can accept not winning more if it means losing less, by a magnitude of five or so. Prudent, not profligate. I enjoy dreaming when I max, but it needn't be every hand. A tenth of them is exciting enough. This site itself tells us that we're throwing money down the toilet in its ads. This is true regardless of how perfect your holds are. Lose less, gain peace of mind. Adios comps.

[wildman49]

Vulturing 12x multipliers ... good! ... though I admit it probably feels better if at least one line hits. 
Just goes to show your system is a loser to!I see these people do this all the time and never once see them hit anything. It's a loser game to start with and to think running around spending money on losing hand after hand will make a profit .