how low can VP go?

[notes1]

i ask this question, without having a good solution. i have been playing for about 10 years and my game of choice is quarter DDB. when i started, it was common to see machines with 9/6 and 9/5 paytables. now, i go to a variety of casinos on the east coast and full pay is 8/5, but there are plenty of 7/5 and even 6/5 machines. on top of that, i used to get a generous amount of comp dollars. it was normal for my wife to spend a couple of hundred dollars shopping with comps, every couple of trips. now, i need to run 6-8k thru a machine to get a free buffet. the last time i went, i could not believe the number of folks playing 1 and 2 coins. no facts to support, but it seemed like 20-30% were playing less than max. and often, there were two players using one machine with reduced bets.  i am well aware of the effects of the recession and states wanting to increase revenues by bringing casinos to their area. but, i am wondering what consumers can do. in my business, consumers used to pay hundreds of dollars to make a stock trade, now it is a lot cheaper. american made cars used to be terrible, consumers revolted by buying foreign brands, and american cars eventually improved. the interenet has driven down prices and the consumer has benefited. when it comes to VP, the situation only seems to worsen. in most areas of the country, casinos are not operating in the free market. some folks love the idea of government regulations, thinking they protect us, but is it really stifling competition? most areas have limited the number of properties, made agreements with tribes, with the main concern being the government gets their guaranteed cut.  what can be done to give players a better value? in most other areas of the economy, the consumer is getting more, but not in the casino. why? 

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=notes1]what can be done to give players a better value?[/quote]Good post. I think a lot of this has to do with over saturation of the market. At this time there are too many casinos and not enough gamblers to go around. Also, many casinos are operating with overhead and tax structures that are unrealistic given today's market. On top of all this we have the fact that young people are not enamored with casino gambling because they have all the video games they could ever want on their phones for free. The market place will eventually take care of this problem as many of today's casinos will be turned into condos or low income housing.

The answer for the customers is easy to say but not easy to do. Anyone can win for a time, but the game will eventually turn on you and take back your winnings plus some. The sensible way to react to lower pay tables and reduced comps is to lower the amount you run through the machine. If you are going to lose 5-10% an hour playing a game no matter what you do, then how can it be better to run $5,000 through the machine instead of $1,000. Better yet, why not run $200 and only lose $5? There always has been and always will be a cost to playing video poker. No one, not even Bob Dancer consistently beats the game itself, he beats the comp system.

The truth is we have power over this whole situation. We can quit playing video poker altogether or adjust the amount of our bets until the cost of playing the game balances the enjoyment we get out of the game. Lower pay tables are inevitable, continued ever increasing losses are not.

[FAA]

When the machine turns on you, and they all do, it is with the most vicious vengeance imaginable. It is definitely nice to run $200 and lose $5, an hour's entertainment. The disaster is that rate never extrapolates! I was even up after $400 coin in yesterday. Then the killer cold cycle began. I lost $65 in the ensuing hour. I was just so stunned; denied a quad in 900 hands. Nothing should stun me by now. An entitlement mentality is always lethal. You stay, you pay. Move before you're mugged. $500 coin in will be my machine limit. Beyond that I am an even more vulnerable sitting duck.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=FAA]You stay, you pay.[/quote]The majority of us would do much better if we ran for the door after every jackpot. Hard to do in real life.   

[olds442jetaway]

I wish I had the expertise, youth, and funds to open what I would call vp parlors. They would be neat, clean, and simple buildings with plenty of free parking. The restaurants inside would consist mostly of food courts with a nice selection and prices the same as on the outside. Comps would be minimal, but the paytables would be great. No crazy promotions. Comps would all be worth a dollar a point and could be used anywhere in the faciltiy. Shopping would be minimal and limited to necessary stores and maybe a variety store. I would have to think about and do research on other non vp games in the casino. If I did have them, they would be in a completely different section. Some couples play those and the other partner plays vp, so that would have to be a consideration. There would be no table games at all and I would have a good staff to keep the machines in order and the place nice and clean. That would be fairly easy since they would all be non smoking venues too. I would have to think about adding a hotel too, but if I did, the rooms would be simple, neat, and clean and priced right too.

[notes1]

 payouts will never improve at casinos, unless the casinos are forced into improving them. and, it will not be the result of any government rule or regulation. imagine if the internet were as regulated as casinos, if politicians, who claimed to be protecting consumers, limited access. SEARS, CIRCUT CITY, BORDERS would still be the dominant forces in their field. instead, the free market took hold, competition and innovation, gave the consumer what they wanted, at a better price and service than before. established casinos do not want change, they want things to stay the same. that way when business slows, as it is today, they can simply lower the paytable on a DDB machine from 9/5, to 8/5, to 7/5 and now 6/5. they are not forced to adapt, improve and in some cases...go out of business. when you are are an established business, one of the things you want is to limit access to competitors. WYNN, ADELSON, CET, they like things just as they are.  think how how a casino gets a license to operate in most areas of the country,the highest bidder wins the rights to get a monoply. there is no incentive to offer value to the consumer. what if a city only allowed one food chain to operate in their area or type of car dealer, etc. we can still have a regulatory body that oversees the casinos, but we need to get government out of the casino business. NYS just went thru the approval process, awarding licenses to the high bidder, florida is now deciding the same thing. the winner will be those who guarantee to give the state the most money. what other business in this country is decided this way? as players, we are doomed, if we do not demand that the politcians get out of the gambling business. 

[FAA]

Notes from the Road. For Notes. CET AC is actually tolerable now. Either that or a fluke good weekend. I turned $25 FP into $65 yesterday, $55 today. And I was up two hours in yesterday before foolishly losing it all in a regrettable third hour. Full pay, good drinks, free shuttle so players can pick their poison casino. Bet with your head, not over it. I also won $25 craps when a player improbably hit a four point. Charmed day. I wisely stashed $80 win in my bag, had lunch and watched three hours of TV in cozy Taj. With discipline, this can be Groundhog Day.

[Carcounter]

It is depressing how good vp tables have been disappearing everywhere.The best DDB game in AC where I play is probably 9/6. Most pay tables are probably worse than that. So I don't play DDB. We have seen a lot of discussion of Bob Dancer's philosophy. I have to agree with him. Find the best payables in your area, learn how to play that game and look for promotions. That's all you can do unless we all quit. I only play 9/6 JOB, boring as it is or 9/5 Super Double Bonus, a 99.69% theo. If these games disappear from my favorite casino, so will I. I have already stopped playing at casinos that have downgraded their vp.

[FAA]

Phil, you missed my point on two fronts. I'm not talking about leaving after jackpots. That's such a rare occurrence anyway that it's not even worthy of debate. How about after $50 to $100 profit? And I do not even mean de facto leaving. But getting off your butt after two hours and before the ensuing cold cycle from the North Pole is highly recommended. I will never repeat yestrday's disaster.

[FAA]

Car, you essentially have a DDB beef. I still find JOB fun, so I am happy as a clam in AC. Enjoy the low low variance. Or play DW. Plenty of full pay excitement for a slightly higher variance. One poster can play it all day. Did I mention the free drinks and beautiful women? We in AC are living la dolce vita. Same town, different outlooks. Cup feels half full nowadays for me.