Do We Know

[cddenver]

From what I've been able to piece together IGT probably uses a simple chipset with minimal OS support. That means no RNG. Since they've had their RNG hacked once they are probably more cautious now and keep it proprietary.
 
I never heard about that.  Was someone able to to get the software, or were some chips swiped and then reverse-engineered?  I've wondered if that could be done, like with old game machines being sold as scrap (or however they're disposed) and someone picking over the boards.

[shadowman]

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/exc ... 569597.pdf

[MikeA]

We certainly "could" have had a Fortran compiler or whatever it's called on our computers (IBM Model 20, System 3, Model 30, Model 40 and 4331) but because of our needs, only Cobol, Assembly Language and RPG were resident.  These days, who knows.  There probable is random number generators buried in the operating system somewhere.  Sometimes I think the bugs I chase today are RANDOM in nature![QUOTE=MikeA]CDDENVER,The computer I wrote that on was a mainframe, not a microcomputer.  Mainframes tend not to include "randomness", especially ones that are designed to process Banking applications . 
 
Oops, my mistake.  I still stand by my comment about your age, though .  When I was in college I remember doing Monte Carlo simulations on a mainframe using FORTRAN 77, which did have a built in RNG.  More of a language for scientific applications, so I guess you'd expect RNG support.  Now I'm showing my age.
 [/QUOTE]

[kjoh]

Sounds to me like there are  some young computer guru's on this site.  Granny here has another idea.  Take all the different versions of VP.  Bonus,  Double  Double, Triple Double, you know the games.  Have you not noticed that when you play a machine that gives, say 10 credits for three of a kind, instead of 15 that you get many more 3 of a kind's.  On a Jacks or better you'll get 4AAAA  far more often than on a Bonus machine.  So, since this is a VP educated group, here is my take.  I think the RNG is a PLOT to keep us playing and that there is nothing Random on any VP machine.  Each machine has a computer PROGRAM which is some little chip that knows exactly what will be dealt and has a hand already picked out for each possible HOLD.  Or the program is designed in such a way that it's random for some hands but is designed to NOT deal the higher paying hands.  Random with the big payout hands being programmed OUT.
I'm a LONG time player not only in years but in no. of hours at each sitting.  There are just too many patters that I see for it to be random.  I've actually kept track of some of the patterns.  One in particular that is common, although there are many, is the AKQ8or hearts(or any suit) and another K or Q or 8.  In other words three to a royal with 4 to a flush and a pair.  You see this constantly.   Another is when you have Three high cards, all different suits with the A in a bonus hand.  Hold the ACE and you get nothing more than a pair if that. 
 
These are just examples.  If any of you play a lot you are bound to see the Patterns.....Also on some machines you will get scads of full houses and no 4 or a kind...  On others you get flushes and straights and not much else.  At any rate someone tell me WHY the machines can't simply have a PROGRAM and not an RNG, or a somewhat controlled RNG.  Oh, one more pt.  I've played on occasion at some of the Indian Casinos.  They are now, in our area, using the Game King IGT machines.  Let me assure you NO ONE wins anything on those machines.  They are somehow programmed to give NO large wins.  AND who puts out the RNG idea anyway.  IGT?  The casinos?  I'm just not convinced that much in the computer controlled world is random.  Anyone agree with me....???

[shadowman]

If any of you play a lot you are bound to see the Patterns.....Also on some machines you will get scads of full houses and no 4 or a kind...  On others you get flushes and straights and not much else.  At any rate someone tell me WHY the machines can't simply have a PROGRAM and not an RNG, or a somewhat controlled RNG.  Oh, one more pt.  I've played on occasion at some of the Indian Casinos.  They are now, in our area, using the Game King IGT machines.  Let me assure you NO ONE wins anything on those machines.  They are somehow programmed to give NO large wins.  AND who puts out the RNG idea anyway.  IGT?  The casinos?  I'm just not convinced that much in the computer controlled world is random.  Anyone agree with me....???
 
Lots of peole believe exactly as you do. However, it is not true. Have you ever sat down and actually kept track of the exact number of times these non-random events occur? Do you know how often they are supposed to occur? I have and I do know and guess what? It all comes out random. Machines are programmed by the game manufacturers (like IGT) and the code is tested and inspected by the Nevada Gaming Commission. The Nevada gaming regulations forbids non-random VP.
 
http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg14.pdf
 
The problem people have is they expect random to mean evenly distributed. That is not what occurs with random events. You will always see short term patterns. As soon as your "eye" catches one of these short term patterns and start looking for it you will start to think it happens more than it does. This is how the human mind works. The only way to offset this tendency is to keep track of exact numbers.
 
Finally, how do you know no one wins at your local Indian casino? Are you there every minute of every day? The thing to watch for at any casino is the pay tables. They will determine the payback. It's possible that the payback is so bad at your local casino that people won't win very often even though they are completely random. That is where sites like this one come in. Learn how to determine the payback and avoid games with poor paybacks. Let's start. Where do you play and what are the pay tables?
 
PS. You can call me gramps.

[kjoh]

Hi gramps...You do have a pt.  I pulled up the site you suggested but decided that 35 pages of gov. regulations was a bit much before coffee.   I'll have to pay closer attention to the machines.  I do watch pay tables.  I started playing in Vegas when the first VP machines were introduced.  Being an avid Canasta and Bridge player I was hooked. (bad term when discussing gambling.)  Living in a "Riverboat state" we don't always have the best pay tables available and you are correct that the Indian casinos in our neck of the woods think nothing of giving you 30 for a FH..  I don't go often for that very reason. In Vegas we never play on the strip, I am savvy about payouts.  However even if a machine has a terrible pay table you would still think that you would hit 4 of a kind aprox. the same no. of times.  Not so with the Indian casinos.  Of course I'm not there often or for any length of time but I have friends who go constantly.  They seem thrilled at the opportunity to breath second hand smoke and eat hot dogs.  ...  What I often do is walk behind a bank of machines and look at the credits people have.  Of course some put in a large bill so that isn't always a good indicator but when you see almost all the machines with only a few credits or $$$ it does make you wonder if anyone is winning. 
 
Oh well,  it won't keep me from frequenting the casinos.  As long as they give me the free rooms, food and the great limo rides I'll keep putting my bills in.  I've hit over 40 royals which isn't bad considering I only get to play about 3-5 times a year.   I'll never get rich but it beats therapy for relaxation....I have a sis who lives in Reno, IGT Territory, and over the years she has visited with a number of employees.  They sign away their life to work in the Computer section...The CIA of gaming.  
 
On the Indian Casino bit, they aren't regulated like NV.  We have had several, "machine tampering by the casino" law suits.   I'm off to Harrah's and Argosy tomorrow.  Free room and Prime Rib dinner.  Walked away with $3000 last time I went and they want me and my money back..LOL    Take care.... 

[cddenver]

Sounds to me like there are  some young computer guru's on this site.  Granny here has another idea.  Take all the different versions of VP.  Bonus,  Double  Double, Triple Double, you know the games.  Have you not noticed that when you play a machine that gives, say 10 credits for three of a kind, instead of 15 that you get many more 3 of a kind's.  On a Jacks or better you'll get 4AAAA  far more often than on a Bonus machine. 
 
Funny that you should mention this.  I thought the same thing many years ago when I started gambling - that the casinos were playing mind games with me, such as giving me kickers more often on games that don't pay extra for them.  Certainly seemed that way.  Or, giving me quad deuces only when I wasn't playing a deuces game.  So, I began keeping track of things like that.  I keep track of the number of kickers I get in all the games I play, and I've found that the percentage is the same regardless of game type. 
 
I think that perception is just psychology at work - you notice things like kickers more when you happen to hit them in games that DON'T pay extra for them.
 

[cddenver]

Lots of peole believe exactly as you do. However, it is not true. Have you ever sat down and actually kept track of the exact number of times these non-random events occur? Do you know how often they are supposed to occur? I have and I do know and guess what? It all comes out random.
 
The problem people have is they expect random to mean evenly distributed. That is not what occurs with random events. You will always see short term patterns. As soon as your "eye" catches one of these short term patterns and start looking for it you will start to think it happens more than it does. This is how the human mind works. The only way to offset this tendency is to keep track of exact numbers.

 
Good point about random events not necessarily being evenly distributed.  When talking about mean values, there's a natural tendency to think that half the values will be less than the mean, and half will be more.  That's not the case with EVENTS.  No event can occur before the previous event, so there's a hard wall of "0" on one end, but the far wall can be essentially infinity, depending on what kind of event you're talking about.
 
In the case of VP, about 2/3 of Royals actually occur in less than the mean interval.  It's the last 1/3 of them - going waaaaaay out there in time - that makes that 40K average interval as high as it is.  In fact, the same goes for all of the other winning hand types, from quads down to High Pairs.  It's that lopsidedness around the average interval that causes those "amaze your friends!" runs, both good and bad.  You'll see that on the machines in casinos, on PC versions of casino games, and even those little electronic pocket games.

[shadowman]

Hi gramps...You do have a pt.  I pulled up the site you suggested but decided that 35 pages of gov. regulations was a bit much before coffee. 

 
Sorry, I should have mentioned to look at section 14.040