Difference between a pro and recreational gambler

[BobDancer]

Post unable to migrate

[alpax]

Interesting read thanks for a lengthy post. I'll look forward to this episode and the Jimmy Jazz one. I do not have too much interest in poker tournament players. I am a recreational player but I always look at the game in the long run.

[misterlister]

Jimmy Jazz? Really?

The problem with this story is how do we know it's true or not?

In my fairly short time playing this game I've run into a handful of players telling me they're pro players, and not one of them wasn't concerned as much as me (someone who plays recreationally and loses money every year) about losing money today.

Theories and trust me's and casinos let me win because they are nice people and they like me, only go so far. Until there's even the slightest kind of verification offered up, my opinion is as good as any. Only facts will change that.

[OTABILL]

Bob thanks for an enlightening post. Yes there is definitely a difference in outlook and perspective between recreational players and pros. For one thing, many of us do not play sufficient hands to have the EV come into play long term. For example, neither my wife or I have not had 1 RF during numerous trips to Vegas (and several to Laughlin) during the past 10 years. Because we visit Vegas 1-2 times a year, slot club points are only useful during our stay as by the time we return, usually well after 6 months, anything not used expired. Locally, we may go a casino a few times a month for several hours, not always for VP. And I play slowly. Thus we treat each visit as a separate experience. My perspective would be compatible with yours if we played more and didn't look at our local trips as entertainment where we might spend as much as if we went to a show/concert, etc.

As I mentioned in previous posts, we trained on VP for winners years ago and look for the best pay tables for the games we play. We appreciate your providing your expertise to this forum. The only thing I would ask is that you be a little more understanding about our viewpoint regarding spending money for entertainment. Different strokes for different folks.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]On this site, a whole lot of you talk about your score
over a very short time period. That's a hallmark of a recreational
player.[/quote]Good story and I'm sure your followers will us it to reinforce their feelings that they can duplicate your success.The reason we talk about loses over a short period of time is because we are playing NEGATIVE GAMES!  They are negative either because the odds say that are or we aren't computers and can't play 100% perfect or we are not willing to risk our hard earned money on a mathematical strategy based on a small percentage of profit and a very real possibility of failure.  If recreational players put more effort into controlling their loses instead of pretending they have the skill and opportunities of a Bob Dancer, they would have more money in the bank.For some reason you also seem to relish marginalizing  "Recreational Players".  This is a theme that runs through your books and into all your posts. I never understood this as we are indirectly paying your bills and supporting your lifestyle.  As far as I'm concerned, recreational players are a lot smarter than professional gamblers.  At the least we have proven to be successful enough outside of gambling to have enough money to enjoy it as recreation.  I do not know if the Bob Dancer story is true or just a "story"and I don't care.  I only worry about what happens in my own bank account. 

[jetermacaw]

I also think we need to include another level of players that need to be thrown into the mix, I think the correct term is and I'm borrowing this from the blackjack table is ploppies. During my most recent trips to Harrahs AC which is in full tourist mode now I have seen a huge amount of people that are just totally clueless. Last week guy plops $100 into 8/5 progressive job and proceeds to throw away paying pairs to hold an ace. Does this the whole session throwing away paying hands, broke in about 10 minutes. The machine next to the one I play is a 1c hundred hand play either QQs or regular. They see 1c put money in and start banging buttons totally clueless as to what they are doing. I wonder if Bob has an idea of what percentage of players fall into that category, because to lump us recreational players in with them would be totally incorrect in my humble opinion.

[FloridaPhil]

Sure.  Lumping all recreational players into the same group is not at all accurate.  What does Dancer think he is doing in his classes, training pros?  I don't think so.  What if the first thing out of his mouth was the following?"Welcome to Bob Dancer's Video Poker Class.  I love it that you showed up today because you will attempt to follow me and lose you ass trying to duplicate my results.  You could skip a lot of effort if you just sent me a check for your upcoming losses, but I want you to think you did this on your own."  

[FAA]

VP is over 99.9% Rec League. We prefer to dodge Bankroll Wrecks each week. I am by now  reconciled with the high probability of losing $20 an hour on VP. My absolute ceiling.

[FAA]

my most recent trips to Harrahs AC, which is in full tourist mode.Guy plops $100 into 8/5 progressive job and proceeds to
throw away paying pairs to hold an ace. Does this the whole session
throwing away paying hands, broke in about 10 minutes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JM, slide in after his loss. He's considerately loaded it up lol! My Caesars AC full pay JOB are now in such woeful disrepair. Half should be out of commission. They fail to hold either the third or fourth slot card, deselecting a player's hold within seconds. Considering my options. Ditch CAC for Bally's, Borgata or Harrah's. Or dump JOB. CAC does have frequent pay outs. Just yesterday an STP $1200 win not ten feet from me.

[BobDancer]

Sure.  Lumping all recreational players into the same group is not at all accurate.  What does Dancer think he is doing in his classes, training pros?  I don't think so.  What if the first thing out of his mouth was the following?"Welcome to Bob Dancer's Video Poker Class.  I love it that you showed up today because you will attempt to follow me and lose you ass trying to duplicate my results.  You could skip a lot of effort if you just sent me a check for your upcoming losses, but I want you to think you did this on your own."  


Wow, FP. You're becoming more and more hostile. Perhaps my criticism of your cheap strategy has turned you into an enemy. I hope not. My comments were not personal at all. I was criticizing what you published, not who you are. Most of my students are recreational players. More than 100,000 of them have come through one or more of my classes since I started holding classes in 1997. Many ask questions during and/or after the classes. It is not my goal to insult them. And for the most part I don't. (And it's probably fair to assume that with some many of them talking to me over the years, I understand the recreational player mindset far better than I'm given credit for around here.)I use the term 'recreational' as a catchall phrase --- meaning, to me,  "doesn't have the understanding that a pro does." You may use the term differently. Any ten recreational players have ten different skill levels (as would ten different pros). Assuming you could rank them, if you want to call the bottom three "ploppies," the middle four "real recreational players," and the highest three "semi-pros," that's fine with me. Only your breakdown will be different than anybody else's because the terms aren't precise. Also, recreational players aren't weak in exactly the same areas. Some have poor game selection. Some have poor game strategies. Some have no understanding of how to milk a slot club. Some use the same strategy for all games and all pay schedules. Some have several of these leaks. Etc. It's impossible to uniquely rank such diverse players on one scale.(Pros differ from each other too. None of us have exactly the same bag of tricks as any other pro.) The fact tact that let yourself play negative games is a problem to deal with, but it does not mean that many of the thought processes the pros use are inapplicable to you. Playing a 97.2% game well is no easier than playing a 99.7% game well. But playing a 97.2% game well leads to better results than playing a 97.2% game poorly. You, FP, are somebody who's actively trying to get more bang for your dollar --- given that you play bad games. Fine. I accept that. A lot of the tools I use are applicable in your situation. You showed considerable thought and skill in creating your cheap strategy. But the final result is ill-equipped to reach your goals.The 'bet one coin' part of it definitely works at reducing your hourly loss. I've written numerous articles over the last 20 years about 'one coin or five.' Betting one coin works at its goal of minimizing your loss while playing bad games. It does have the drawing back of "heartbreak" when you get that one-coin royal. You may be well-equipped to deal with that, FP, but I assure you many players aren't.But your strategy includes sections where you increase your bet on these bad games simply because you've been running good over the past few minutes. This doesn't work. (If it really did work, as soon as you run well for a couple of minutes, rush over to the $100 machine and start banging away. You don't need much money. after all, you're running well! If you can see the fallacy of this, you should be able to see the fallacy of betting max coins on bad games for lower stakes as well.) And calling yourself a recreational player instead of a pro as a badge of honor doesn't make it work any better. It's still bogus mathematics.You study the games and then say things like, (paraphrasing), 'in Deuces Wild I hate going for inside straights, so I don't." That's a leak. That increases your loss --- not because you are playing a bad game but because you are playing a game badly. Every deviation from the computer-perfect strategy costs you. You, FP, are smart enough to understand this. Many others here aren't. Some think they can actually win using your cheap strategy. They are mistaken, assuming we are talking about the sum over 10 or more trips. If you're talking just one session, anything can happen whether you're brilliant or clueless. You don't need any strategy to get lucky once. But over time, the sum of your plays finds its correct level.If you play 97% games one coin at a time, your results will average 95% over time. But 95% of 20% of the coin in definitely is a smaller loss than 97% of 100% of the coin in. It's never a win, but it is a smaller loss.You and I do not have to be enemies, FP. You are smart enough to understand many of the points I try to explain. As you learn more, your results will improve. Just don't be so married to your cheap strategy that you can't learn from others.