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9/6 Double Double Bonus
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FloridaPhil
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 6229
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am
9/6 Double Double Bonus
On my weekly trip to the Tampa Hard Rock last Friday, I happened to drop by the new high limit slot room. They had some bikini models in there taking pictures, so it looked like a good time to check it out. I walked over to one of the video poker machines to see what the odds were like. There were two beautiful girls standing alongside the machine and they smiled when I walked up. I was too embarrassed to tell them I wanted to play a $20 bill, so I smiled checked the odds and walked away. The pay schedule started at $10 a coin and the DDB odds were 9/6. This is the highest paying DDB I have seen in Florida so I went home and did some math. 9/6 DDB is a 98.981% max coin game. If you play 700 hands an hour perfectly, your minimum long term loss would be $50 x 700 x.01019 or $350 an hour. If you don't hit a Royal, you could easily lose over $1,000 an hour. I'm sure this wouldn't concern someone in the least with that kind of discretionary income, but it is kind of interesting. I wonder what kind of comps you get from the Tampa Hard Rock for losing a $1,000 an hour?
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alpax
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:42 pm
The Hard Rock Tampa seems to be a big casino when it is listed as the sixth biggest in the nation according to the American Casino Guide, chances are there will be some people who are as passionate into video poker as you are.
It seems like you've discovered 9/6 DDB at full pay at a higher denomination. Some people reported 3 months ago on the existence of 9/6 DDB, try to look for them here:
(5) $1, $2, $5 Â 1 Play Up against the wall nearest the food court, Game Kings
(4) $1, $2, $5  1 Play  directly in front of credit office, on the end of a bank of slots.
I play 9/6 DDB for $1 time to time if I go to a different casino and I can tell you that the actual experience you go through is way off the 1% theoretical house edge of losing $35 an hour for playing 700 hands. There are still happy and depressing days from the game DDB creates, very much a "slot machine" experience since people are already used to it. With this paytable, it is just that the depressing days are a little less depressing than anything shorter pay.
It seems like you've discovered 9/6 DDB at full pay at a higher denomination. Some people reported 3 months ago on the existence of 9/6 DDB, try to look for them here:
(5) $1, $2, $5 Â 1 Play Up against the wall nearest the food court, Game Kings
(4) $1, $2, $5  1 Play  directly in front of credit office, on the end of a bank of slots.
I play 9/6 DDB for $1 time to time if I go to a different casino and I can tell you that the actual experience you go through is way off the 1% theoretical house edge of losing $35 an hour for playing 700 hands. There are still happy and depressing days from the game DDB creates, very much a "slot machine" experience since people are already used to it. With this paytable, it is just that the depressing days are a little less depressing than anything shorter pay.
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FloridaPhil
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 6229
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am
I didn't know Tampa had 9/6 DDB in $1s... Thanks for the tip. I rarely play DDB due to the long dry streaks, but have found myself playing a lot of single quarter DDB lately. It's still fun to hit a quad, but the cost is a lot less. I don't play with an expectation of winning. I play to be entertained and when I win it's a bonus. Works for me...
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Vman96
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:49 am
There are still happy and depressing days from the game DDB creates, very much a "slot machine" experience since people are already used to it.
A major reason people like this game the most, imo. Even my typically risk adverse g/f prefers this game. Partly because she's made some good hits on it so far.
A major reason people like this game the most, imo. Even my typically risk adverse g/f prefers this game. Partly because she's made some good hits on it so far.
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FloridaPhil
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 6229
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am
To me playing DDB is like not having sex for a year. It feels so good when you finally hit a quad, that you can't wait to try it again.
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alpax
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:42 pm
hahaha Phil you personality has been more open with your personality these days.
A major reason people like this game the most, imo. Even my typically risk adverse g/f prefers this game. Partly because she's made some good hits on it so far.
I introduced a few people who do not frequent casinos as much to video poker recently, I started off Jacks or Better but they ran into a quadless streak while starting off. They started doubting how the game is winnable with meager payouts. I suggested and introduced DDB next since it was oriented on getting quads. Shortly after the switch two sets of low quads for 400 and a set of aces and a 5-K quad came to boost their losses into winnings. Despite my warning about significant 1 for 1 payout reduction on the 2 pairs to them and the bankroll swings, they told me they'd would never touch JoB again. My mistake there.
I wonder what kind of comps you get from the Tampa Hard Rock for losing a $1,000 an hour?
To complete your response about being rewarded with comps by playing $10 DDB, I read somewhere on the VPFree Yahoo groups (very old school message board) that the new management that took over in the beginning of 2014 has completely made playing video poker unrewarding. I am not sure if the changes were made due to low revenue and capital gains. Before that there were stories where players were treated like kings at Hard Rock properties with RFB comps aplenty (Room/Food/Beverages).
One guy made a trip to HR and put in $50,000 coin in of play (that will be 1000 hands of $10 DDB) but later on reported getting just $60 play and one night stay in the mail. Also wins/losses are factored in. The new Seminole Wild Card system was also bashed heavily, saying it is not even worth the plastic used to make those cards, the points will expire so quickly. It is $4 coin in per point for 0.0625% return. In contrast, Bob Dancer gets 0.3% where he plays, and is eligible for double points for 0.6%.
The people do say really nice things about the Hard Rock properties, how it is big and full of amenities. Great hotel, shopping outlets, restaurants, and pools. Unfortunately good things do not last forever.
About my experience with full pay 9/6 DDB. I limit play to 1000 hands since $1 denomination is needed to get that pay table. Normally I think it is necessary to get $1000 worth of quads to walk out a winner for the session. I've masted the strategy to be able to play the advanced strategy 99.8%+ accuracy, but the swings will be inevitable. The on back to back trips in the past, I did not land a single quad in each trip and lost $800-$900 each trips. On one good trip I got two sets of quad aces and 3 sets of low quads within 1000 hands, and that was a dream session. The losses playing DDB on the side can affect my normal JoB play schedule.
A major reason people like this game the most, imo. Even my typically risk adverse g/f prefers this game. Partly because she's made some good hits on it so far.
I introduced a few people who do not frequent casinos as much to video poker recently, I started off Jacks or Better but they ran into a quadless streak while starting off. They started doubting how the game is winnable with meager payouts. I suggested and introduced DDB next since it was oriented on getting quads. Shortly after the switch two sets of low quads for 400 and a set of aces and a 5-K quad came to boost their losses into winnings. Despite my warning about significant 1 for 1 payout reduction on the 2 pairs to them and the bankroll swings, they told me they'd would never touch JoB again. My mistake there.
I wonder what kind of comps you get from the Tampa Hard Rock for losing a $1,000 an hour?
To complete your response about being rewarded with comps by playing $10 DDB, I read somewhere on the VPFree Yahoo groups (very old school message board) that the new management that took over in the beginning of 2014 has completely made playing video poker unrewarding. I am not sure if the changes were made due to low revenue and capital gains. Before that there were stories where players were treated like kings at Hard Rock properties with RFB comps aplenty (Room/Food/Beverages).
One guy made a trip to HR and put in $50,000 coin in of play (that will be 1000 hands of $10 DDB) but later on reported getting just $60 play and one night stay in the mail. Also wins/losses are factored in. The new Seminole Wild Card system was also bashed heavily, saying it is not even worth the plastic used to make those cards, the points will expire so quickly. It is $4 coin in per point for 0.0625% return. In contrast, Bob Dancer gets 0.3% where he plays, and is eligible for double points for 0.6%.
The people do say really nice things about the Hard Rock properties, how it is big and full of amenities. Great hotel, shopping outlets, restaurants, and pools. Unfortunately good things do not last forever.
About my experience with full pay 9/6 DDB. I limit play to 1000 hands since $1 denomination is needed to get that pay table. Normally I think it is necessary to get $1000 worth of quads to walk out a winner for the session. I've masted the strategy to be able to play the advanced strategy 99.8%+ accuracy, but the swings will be inevitable. The on back to back trips in the past, I did not land a single quad in each trip and lost $800-$900 each trips. On one good trip I got two sets of quad aces and 3 sets of low quads within 1000 hands, and that was a dream session. The losses playing DDB on the side can affect my normal JoB play schedule.
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FloridaPhil
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 6229
- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am
[quote=alpax]hahaha Phil you personality has been more open with your personality these days.[/quote]This is the real me. I ran out of things to say about the Cheap Strategy. If players find it useful... great. If not... great too.I get the impression that the Tampa Hard Rock would like it a lot better if video poker didn't exist. They keep moving the machines around, they won't fix the sticky deal buttons, VP is not eligible for multi point days and the comps are practically worthless. This is one of the main reasons I never play max coins in Tampa unless I'm significantly ahead. I'm a little happier with the Hollywood Hard Rock. They have Airport Deuces in quarters and I can get a free room almost anytime I want, so it's worth it for us to play max coins. The difference is competition. South Florida has a number of casinos. Tampa is alone in all of Central Florida and is one giant cash cow with Disney tourists flocking in there in droves. If Disney ever quits acting like "Goody Two Shoes" the Tampa Hard Rock will be a shopping mall. Maybe some day this will be the case, but right now it's our only choice.
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alpax
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:42 pm
I got around to looking into the long term analysis for 9/6 Double Double Bonus for the recreational player.
NOTE: I may receive some flak from this, but I believe it will reflect the theory of the game itself. I would
not recommend playing DDB to others after seeing this, but the results were staggering to myself too. A high variance game does have a wider range of outcomes.
I know there is 10/6 DDB in Nevada as well as 40(Straight Flush)-10-6 DDB in some states, but 9-6 DDB is as good as it gets for the gaming jurisdiction in most states. On top of that, to play this paytable, it must be played for the dollar denomination and up in most states as well.
The premises were done with the following in mind:
(1) The average avid recreational player will play 500,000 hands throughout their lifetime hobby with the game, which I came up with this number for about 100 vacation trips of 10 hour sessions at an average rate of 500 hands played per hour. Maybe a player plays more than 5000 hands per trip but takes less than 100 trips in a 20 year span, but I chose 500k as a good round number.
(2) I am aware that full pay 9-6 DDB does not exist for pennies, but I used the denomination to get a more
accurate range of values, I can only get up to 52 bars. It took more than 3 hours running to simulate this scenario on Video Poker for Winners.
(3) The bankroll over the life span reflects 25 Royal Flush Payouts (the player do not need to have the entire bankroll all at once, you can accumulate this bankroll over time during playing data). 25 Royal Flushes at max penny bets is $1000. Of course, the most popular denomination played is the quarter, so multiplying everything by a factor of 25 should reflect quarter play.
(4) All hands are played with computer optimal play (strategy plus every penalty situations), which is difficult for mortals. So even this is a big assumption, and the results could be shifted into more negative territory.
(5) 500k max bet penny hands will be $25,000 coin in. Each percent is $250. 9-6 DDB returns on average 98.98% thus at about one percent, the player is expected to lose $250 or little over 6 royal flush BEFORE the comps/casino club benefits are even considered throughout the play.
Here is the bell curve end result of 3+ hours simulation on Video Poker for Winners
I've decided to group the results in different categories to get a better understanding
A. The Huge Bankroll is Not Enough (96% return or worse)
About 1 out of every 2000 players will NOT be able to play through 500k hands with the 25 royal flush bankroll they have accumulated. And this is the off chance they play without a casino club card and receive no form of comps. That includes complete mastery of the game and playing flawless.
Red Bar 1 Ruined 0.05%
B. Brutal Loss / Very Unlucky / Absolute Hell
This category is for people that lost more than triple house edge (96-97% return) of the theoretical return even with complete mastery of the game.
About 1.8% chance of happening which is 1 in 55 players
Red Bar 2 $0.01-$40 0.02%
Red Bar 3 $40.01-$80 0.05%
Red Bar 4 $80.01-$120 0.1%
Red Bar 5 $120.01-$160 0.18%
Red Bar 6 $160.01-$200 0.29%
Red Bar 7 $200.01-$240 0.46%
Red Bar 8 $240.01-$280 0.7%
C. Lost more than Double the Theorectical Edge (97-98% return), Bob Dancer's tips may not even help the player out of the red.
About 14.41% chance of happening which is about 1 in 7 players
Red Bar 9 $280.01-$320 1.03%
Red Bar 10 $320.01-$360 1.45%
Red Bar 11 $360.01-$400 1.98%
Red Bar 12 $400.01-$440 2.6%
Red Bar 13 $440.01-$480 3.3%
Red Bar 14 $480.01-$520 4.05%
D. Lost more than the game's theorectical computer perfect payout of 98.9808% (98%-99%)
About 36.9 chance of happening which is about 1 in 3 players
Red Bar 15 $520.01-$560 4.81%
Red Bar 16 $560.01-$600 5.52%
Red Bar 17 $600.01-$640 6.13%
Red Bar 18 $640.01-$680 6.6%
Red Bar 19 $680.01-$720 6.88%
Red Bar 20 $720.01-$760 6.96%
E. Did Better than Theorectical Return (99%-99.5%), but losses were made up in the food, freeplay and hotel offers
About 19.34 chance of happening which is about 1 in 5 players
Red Bar 21 $760.01-$800 6.83%
Red Bar 22 $800.01-$840 6.5%
Red Bar 23 $840.01-$880 6.01%
F. Semi Winner (99.5%-99.9%) when including casino comps and mailers and the 0.1-0.3% cashback from the card
About 14.09% chance of happening which is about 1 in 7 players
Red Bar 24 $880.01-$920 5.39%
Red Bar 25 $920.01-$960 4.71%
Green Bar 1 $960.01-$1000 3.99%
--- The winners circle 13.37% chance ---
G. An outright winner from the game (100%+ Return)
About 11.62% chance of happening which is about 1 in 9 players)
Green Bar 2 $1000.01-$1040 3.3%
Green Bar 3 $1040.01-$1080 2.65%
Green Bar 4 $1080.01-$1120 2.07%
Green Bar 5 $1120.01-$1160 1.58%
Green Bar 6 $1160.01-$1200 1.17%
Green Bar 7 $1200.01-$1240 0.85%
H. Significant Winner (101% Return)
About 1.66% chance of happening which is about 1 in 60 players
Green Bar 8 $1240.01-$1280 0.6%
Green Bar 9 $1280.01-$1320 0.41%
Green Bar 10 $1320.01-$1360 0.28%
Green Bar 11 $1360.01-$1400 0.18%
Green Bar 12 $1400.01-$1440 0.12%
Green Bar 13 $1440.01-$1480 0.07%
I. Best of the Best Dream Outcome (102% Return)
About 0.09% chance of happening which is about 1 in 1000 players)
Green Bar 14 $1480.01-$1520 0.04%
Green Bar 15 $1520.01-$1560 0.03%
Green Bar 16 $1560-$1600+ 0.02%
NOTE: I may receive some flak from this, but I believe it will reflect the theory of the game itself. I would
not recommend playing DDB to others after seeing this, but the results were staggering to myself too. A high variance game does have a wider range of outcomes.
I know there is 10/6 DDB in Nevada as well as 40(Straight Flush)-10-6 DDB in some states, but 9-6 DDB is as good as it gets for the gaming jurisdiction in most states. On top of that, to play this paytable, it must be played for the dollar denomination and up in most states as well.
The premises were done with the following in mind:
(1) The average avid recreational player will play 500,000 hands throughout their lifetime hobby with the game, which I came up with this number for about 100 vacation trips of 10 hour sessions at an average rate of 500 hands played per hour. Maybe a player plays more than 5000 hands per trip but takes less than 100 trips in a 20 year span, but I chose 500k as a good round number.
(2) I am aware that full pay 9-6 DDB does not exist for pennies, but I used the denomination to get a more
accurate range of values, I can only get up to 52 bars. It took more than 3 hours running to simulate this scenario on Video Poker for Winners.
(3) The bankroll over the life span reflects 25 Royal Flush Payouts (the player do not need to have the entire bankroll all at once, you can accumulate this bankroll over time during playing data). 25 Royal Flushes at max penny bets is $1000. Of course, the most popular denomination played is the quarter, so multiplying everything by a factor of 25 should reflect quarter play.
(4) All hands are played with computer optimal play (strategy plus every penalty situations), which is difficult for mortals. So even this is a big assumption, and the results could be shifted into more negative territory.
(5) 500k max bet penny hands will be $25,000 coin in. Each percent is $250. 9-6 DDB returns on average 98.98% thus at about one percent, the player is expected to lose $250 or little over 6 royal flush BEFORE the comps/casino club benefits are even considered throughout the play.
Here is the bell curve end result of 3+ hours simulation on Video Poker for Winners
I've decided to group the results in different categories to get a better understanding
A. The Huge Bankroll is Not Enough (96% return or worse)
About 1 out of every 2000 players will NOT be able to play through 500k hands with the 25 royal flush bankroll they have accumulated. And this is the off chance they play without a casino club card and receive no form of comps. That includes complete mastery of the game and playing flawless.
Red Bar 1 Ruined 0.05%
B. Brutal Loss / Very Unlucky / Absolute Hell
This category is for people that lost more than triple house edge (96-97% return) of the theoretical return even with complete mastery of the game.
About 1.8% chance of happening which is 1 in 55 players
Red Bar 2 $0.01-$40 0.02%
Red Bar 3 $40.01-$80 0.05%
Red Bar 4 $80.01-$120 0.1%
Red Bar 5 $120.01-$160 0.18%
Red Bar 6 $160.01-$200 0.29%
Red Bar 7 $200.01-$240 0.46%
Red Bar 8 $240.01-$280 0.7%
C. Lost more than Double the Theorectical Edge (97-98% return), Bob Dancer's tips may not even help the player out of the red.
About 14.41% chance of happening which is about 1 in 7 players
Red Bar 9 $280.01-$320 1.03%
Red Bar 10 $320.01-$360 1.45%
Red Bar 11 $360.01-$400 1.98%
Red Bar 12 $400.01-$440 2.6%
Red Bar 13 $440.01-$480 3.3%
Red Bar 14 $480.01-$520 4.05%
D. Lost more than the game's theorectical computer perfect payout of 98.9808% (98%-99%)
About 36.9 chance of happening which is about 1 in 3 players
Red Bar 15 $520.01-$560 4.81%
Red Bar 16 $560.01-$600 5.52%
Red Bar 17 $600.01-$640 6.13%
Red Bar 18 $640.01-$680 6.6%
Red Bar 19 $680.01-$720 6.88%
Red Bar 20 $720.01-$760 6.96%
E. Did Better than Theorectical Return (99%-99.5%), but losses were made up in the food, freeplay and hotel offers
About 19.34 chance of happening which is about 1 in 5 players
Red Bar 21 $760.01-$800 6.83%
Red Bar 22 $800.01-$840 6.5%
Red Bar 23 $840.01-$880 6.01%
F. Semi Winner (99.5%-99.9%) when including casino comps and mailers and the 0.1-0.3% cashback from the card
About 14.09% chance of happening which is about 1 in 7 players
Red Bar 24 $880.01-$920 5.39%
Red Bar 25 $920.01-$960 4.71%
Green Bar 1 $960.01-$1000 3.99%
--- The winners circle 13.37% chance ---
G. An outright winner from the game (100%+ Return)
About 11.62% chance of happening which is about 1 in 9 players)
Green Bar 2 $1000.01-$1040 3.3%
Green Bar 3 $1040.01-$1080 2.65%
Green Bar 4 $1080.01-$1120 2.07%
Green Bar 5 $1120.01-$1160 1.58%
Green Bar 6 $1160.01-$1200 1.17%
Green Bar 7 $1200.01-$1240 0.85%
H. Significant Winner (101% Return)
About 1.66% chance of happening which is about 1 in 60 players
Green Bar 8 $1240.01-$1280 0.6%
Green Bar 9 $1280.01-$1320 0.41%
Green Bar 10 $1320.01-$1360 0.28%
Green Bar 11 $1360.01-$1400 0.18%
Green Bar 12 $1400.01-$1440 0.12%
Green Bar 13 $1440.01-$1480 0.07%
I. Best of the Best Dream Outcome (102% Return)
About 0.09% chance of happening which is about 1 in 1000 players)
Green Bar 14 $1480.01-$1520 0.04%
Green Bar 15 $1520.01-$1560 0.03%
Green Bar 16 $1560-$1600+ 0.02%
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BobDancer
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 1115
- Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:07 am
Interesting analysis, Alpax. The more you study these things, the more knowledgeable you'll get. And you'll understand it better when you write it up for others to look at. Keep it up!One thing is clear --- the "long run" is longer than 500,000 hands, at least for volatile games like DDB.Also, keep in mind that where you end up on this curve is pretty random. There is no process for "Bob Dancer to end up winning every time," for example. This analysis assumes that everybody is playing computer perfectly (which is my goal --- not always reached.)There is no function on this particular software to handle people who play inaccurately. If you think you make about 1% worth of errors, try the 9/5 DDB or the non-existent 8/6 DDB as a proxy of how you would play 9/6 DDB with 1% errors.One value of this analysis, if extended, would be to see how the 9/6 DDB results are different from the 9/5 DDB results, and how they are different from the 8/5 DDB results. Recreational players often believe it doesn't matter, but you'll see more bankruptcies and fewer positive scores as you go down in pay schedules.
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notes1
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3143
- Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:18 am
alpax, not sure why anyone would give you flak for providing useful info, thanks for doing so. the difficulty for me, as a non math person, is to interpret all the data. my eyes get blurry just looking at it. i cannot remember the last time i played a quarter 9/6 DDB machine. would it be fair (asking for your opinion) to say that the higher the volatiity game and the lower the paytable, the more likely one is to lose money and lose it faster? another question, would it be a fair comparison to relate progressing from JOB to BP to DDB, the same as eating at home, eating at ponderosa to eating at ruth chris? one needs to account for the extra value/excitement one receives, when determining value.
