Can VP machines be programmed for low return?

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Quad Deuces
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Re: Can VP machines be programmed for low return?

Post by Quad Deuces »

Close enough to read the screen and determine it's a casino cheat screen but too far to take a picture that would bring Trop AC to its knees.  Even given a second chance to snap one.  Uh huh.Why are you worried about doing something that's "strongly disallowed" in order to provide irrefutable evidence of casino workers doing something even more strongly disallowed?


DaBurglar
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Post by DaBurglar »





Close enough to read the screen and determine it's a casino cheat screen but too far to take a picture that would bring Trop AC to its knees.  Even given a second chance to snap one.  Uh huh.Why are you worried about doing something that's "strongly disallowed" in order to provide irrefutable evidence of casino workers doing something even more strongly disallowed?


  I'm not trying to convince or prove, or sway, or force anyone to believe anything.  I've stated what I believe, what I feel, what I personally have seen, been told, etc.   I've stated I generally trust the machines I play.  I DONT need to play VP. I play because I want to and it is the only game in any  casino I will play (I wont even touch dice simply because it is a great way to catch a disease lol.)  if I thought I was getting cheated regularly I would not play.  I am just able to accept the possibility it can, and at some point probably has happened.  I can easily see and visualize HOW such a thing may in fact occur.  thats it.   I can tell you this, I DONT want to be right about this, I hope that, as far as my own play is concerned, it has never happened to me and never will. I saw what I saw, and ONE LAST time, what I was described by a couple people who should know.....I am not going to debate how easy or non-easy it is to snap a picture in a casino at various distances at 2 am when all i was doing was looking for a game to play at the time and just happened to see what i was seeing, jeeez..... But you know what, of course, since I didnt actually chat the tech up, and didnt sit there and ask for a demonstration, sure its pissible I misunderstood what i saw.   But what i think I saw, and how it would work, is NOT outlandish or impossible or anything like that.  These screens are not "CHEAT" screens (thats your term), they are user utilities that perform obvious functions, they are not complex, they are commonly used on all kinds of systems, games etc.  Even still, i would be very comfortable believing that MOST casinos leave these "settings" and probabilities right where they are supposed to be to reflect a mathmatically correct game and comply with the regulation you put your faith in.    Again, I just am willing and able to believe what else might be possible in this world, in this day and age, in any given casino.   believe what YOU want.  I have no desire to "Prove" anything to you.   Anymore than you have the desire to answer my QUESTION about how, exactly and in what way or under what circumstances and methodology/procedure, if a casino had a few rigged VP machines mixed in with its total population of games, how would those machines ever be discovered, how likely such a thing really truly is, and of course, the coup de grace, how it just absolutley automatically results in losing a license.     And dont say "Because the regulations say so"  lol   You'd need to learn a little about how courts work, legal system flow, plea bargains and whatever else the gaming commision does to police its own.   And you'd need to do this for ALL gaming commisions everywhere, not just Nevada, because everyone interested in this issue likes to point out how *****s (i.e. native American) only do what they want and somehow are inherently less trustworthy than fat CEOs at caesars and MGM and Ameristar etc etc.   Edited to add:  You know this all about Faith and philosophy.   There are rules and regs for EVERY industry and bsuiness out there, and everytime you or I go into such a business, be it a Bank, or a restaurant or a Dentist or a autoshop, we do so with the belief that in all probability the business is following the rules.  But we all also know that sometimes, somewhere, that is not the case.  THATS all I am saying, I cant speak for any other posters who want to believe casinos are inherently evil. The food industry says you cant spit in peoples food or drinks when serving in a restaurant.  Does it happen???    



backsider
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Post by backsider »



Be careful, DaBurglar, and I wish I could have kept up with this yesterday but we had one of our section Commanders move on and a new one introduced. Youre far too intelligent for shadowman to be able to deal with without his hissy fits and resorting to insults, and a few more posts may earn you what I already have: the feared RS label! Think of all the names he must have floating around inside his head day and night, grinding away at his remaining sanity and driving him up the wall, and all because there are others like you and I whove have the guts to say something he doesnt believe can happen, is possible. Would a casino alter their machines? What, and someone risk JAIL TIME!

Tedlark
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Post by Tedlark »



backsider you mentioned in a post about 6 weeks ago that you were turning over a new leaf and you gave us, the forum members, permission to let you know when you were reverting back to your old ways. I am thinking that you are reverting back to your old ways. Just my opinion and I am only mentioning it because you gave me the liberty to do so.  Your friend, Ted.

DaBurglar
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Post by DaBurglar »




What is the "RS label"?   I'm lost on that one, I must admit.... Truthfully, I havent been offended by anything anyone has posted or said on this forum, whether it was about or in response to me or otherwise.   I find Shadowman and everyone else here to be intelligent and interesting, just like I find backsider to be interesting and at times humorous, but I might also see how someone could be annoyed by him or anyone of a number of people here......hell, i am sure i have annoyed someone here lol     I would not post or even read a forum where I couldnt be my own personality, couldnt use humor and satire and sarcasm.   That would blow..... I've learned a lot here and I will continue to do so.....  Now getting back to one of our points.   A while back, I remember asking a friend who used to work at a now-extinct vegas resort if casinos could offer customized video poker games that are truly "unique" or different.   The discussion evolved (or devolved depending on how u look at it lol) to what casinos are required to be held to when it comes to advertising for certain games, be it slots or VP or whatever.   I asked my friend specifically if a casino could offer a VP game that centered on getting players to play based on receiving a particular type of hand more frequently....Royals are the obvious focus  but I said "couldnt you advertise a game that says players will receive more four of a kinds."   my friend said casinos are allowed to offer any game they want so long as they clearly exercise truth in advertising and the game is set up to do exactly what is advertised.   This implied to me that a casino COULD program (or buy a game that is programmed) to generate more four of kinds, and as long as they state all that to the player before the player inserts money, all is ok.   this makes total sense to me as it is a natural simple flow of business in a creative and competitive market....  Consider games like quick quads or more relevant, dreamcard.  They both have programming built in that doesnt affect what or how the RNG initially generates, but DOES impact the results and rewards AFTER the results if the RNG are filtered through additional programming.  This doesnt violate any reg obviously not because the RNG is unaffected (although that is part of it obviously) but because the games workings and reward are clearly laid out before hand in the advertising and info.

shadowman
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Post by shadowman »

Now getting back to one of our points.   A while back, I remember asking a friend who used to work at a now-extinct vegas resort if casinos could offer customized video poker games that are truly "unique" or different.   The discussion evolved (or devolved depending on how u look at it lol) to what casinos are required to be held to when it comes to advertising for certain games, be it slots or VP or whatever.   I asked my friend specifically if a casino could offer a VP game that centered on getting players to play based on receiving a particular type of hand more frequently....Royals are the obvious focus  but I said "couldnt you advertise a game that says players will receive more four of a kinds."   my friend said casinos are allowed to offer any game they want so long as they clearly exercise truth in advertising and the game is set up to do exactly what is advertised.   This implied to me that a casino COULD program (or buy a game that is programmed) to generate more four of kinds, and as long as they state all that to the player before the player inserts money, all is ok.   this makes total sense to me as it is a natural simple flow of business in a creative and competitive market....
 
Casino employees are well known for giving out misinformation. You saw the regulation and you now know it would be illegal to provide a VP game in NV where the card selection is not random. So, you should also know the information you received was wrong. 
 
Consider games like quick quads or more relevant, dreamcard.  They both have programming built in that doesnt affect what or how the RNG initially generates, but DOES impact the results and rewards AFTER the results if the RNG are filtered through additional programming.  This doesnt violate any reg obviously not because the RNG is unaffected (although that is part of it obviously) but because the games workings and reward are clearly laid out before hand in the advertising and info.


 
The dreamcard is not part of the randomly dealt cards. Only 4 cards are selected and they are completely random. The dreamcard is not the result of the RNG. It is computed as the final card of the deal. Hence, there is no secondary programming that applies to cards selected by the RNG or the final result. 
 
It's not like any other VP game, but it also doesn't break any regulations.

DaBurglar
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Post by DaBurglar »



if a casino advertised a game like "REALLY QUICK QUADS", and had a program subroutine with a counter and a few boolean loops to have the incidence of four of a kind show up within every 350 hands instead of the expected 400 hands of a truly random game with no modifiaction. BUT then clearly stated and described all this in the game's advertising and rules/info so each player knows what is happening, then voila, this is legal and simply a new game.  I'm sure the paytable would be slaughtered accordinlgy but still.....if the casino puts such a program in place and then DOES not advertise or inform , then obviously that is illegal. Casinos in Nevada have strict truth in advertising rules and standards when it comes to slots and VP, but are able to get away with more with regards table games.   With table games, casinos obviously are not supposed to cheat and cant falsely advertise or blatantly mislead, BUT they can get away with certain sins of omission.   Consider spanish 21, whereby a "spanish deck" is utilized.   I have only seen 2 casinos that clearly stated that a SPANISH deck was used in this game, and both of those casinos refrained from actually spelling out just what a SPANISH deck actually was!    Every other casino I bothered to check didnt say ANYTHING!    Of course, if a player chooses to ask a dealer or pit bull, then they get the scoop.     Just putting all this out there for anyone else who wants to entertain in their mind how casinos might pull off some shennanigans and get away with it.....

shadowman
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Post by shadowman »

if a casino advertised a game like "REALLY QUICK QUADS", and had a program subroutine with a counter and a few boolean loops to have the incidence of four of a kind show up within every 350 hands instead of the expected 400 hands of a truly random game with no modifiaction. BUT then clearly stated and described all this in the game's advertising and rules/info so each player knows what is happening, then voila, this is legal and simply a new game.  I'm sure the paytable would be slaughtered accordinlgy but still.....if the casino puts such a program in place and then DOES not advertise or inform , then obviously that is illegal.
 
No, it could not. Did you read the regulations? What part of "the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game" did you not understand?
 

gregorio
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Post by gregorio »

Hi DaBurglar. Since it seems you do most of your gambling in AC and you like to "put some stuff out there" for people to ponder, I'd like to put something out there as well and see what develops. I already brought it up in the lounge a few weeks ago, but the lounge was obviously not the right place to "put it all out there". Hope this is the right place and it  goes well with other things put out there. Here it is: "On November 15, 2010, State Senators James Whelan (D-2nd) and Raymond Lesniak (D-20th) introduced Senate Bill S12[4] to change the New Jersey Casino Control Act and deregulate the Atlantic City casino industry to improve competitiveness with casinos in other states. The bill would also transfer day-to-day regulatory functions from the Casino Control Commission to the Division of Gaming Enforcement.[5] After hearings in both houses of the Legislature, the bill was approved on January 10, 2011 and signed into law by Governor Chris Christie on February 1, 2011.The new law eliminated the requirement for the commission to have inspectors in casinos around-the-clock and made the Division of Gaming Enforcement responsible for certifying gaming revenue. The Division of Gaming Enforcement also took over responsibility for registering casino employees and non-gaming vendors, licensing gaming vendors, and handling all patron complaints"I wonder what you think the reasons for deregulating the AC casino industry is all about and how does it help it's competitiveness? Also there is no longer AC Casino Control Commission: it was abolished and is now in the hands of the state.  Funny timing I thought. AC casinos were really struggling to survive because of huge competition  from casinos in neighboring states plus a recession. Several shut down. Seemingly another huge casino in AC would be the last thing other casinos needed. Interestingly, all these changes to AC casino industry happened when new casino called Revel was looking for financing, after Morgan Stanley, it's primary owner, pulled out. Well, Governor Christie came to the rescue announcing the State of NJ will invest $260 million in the stalled project. Then NJ lawmakers introduced new bills to deregulate casino industry in order to help other casinos compete adequately and vuala: Revel opened a few months ago and other casinos do not complain about lost revenues.  Of course it could be just a coincidence and things are simply improving in AC. BTW, visited Revel a few weeks ago and what a fabulous place it is!!!!! Had dinner with my wife at Amada. It was great! Even played VP for a few hours with limited success. So what say you?


BillyJoe
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Post by BillyJoe »

Hi Da Burglar. Since it seems you do most of your gambling in AC and you like to "put some stuff out there" for people to ponder, I'd like to put something out there as well and see what develops. I already brought it up in the lounge a few weeks ago, but the lounge was obviously not the right place to "put it all out there". Hope this is the right place and it  goes well with other things put out there. Here it is:

"On November 15, 2010, State Senators James Whelan (D-2nd) and Raymond Lesniak (D-20th) introduced Senate Bill S12[4] to change the New Jersey Casino Control Act and deregulate the Atlantic City casino industry to improve competitiveness with casinos in other states. The bill would also transfer day-to-day regulatory functions from the Casino Control Commission to the Division of Gaming Enforcement.[5] After hearings in both houses of the Legislature, the bill was approved on January 10, 2011 and signed into law by Governor Chris Christie on February 1, 2011.

The new law eliminated the requirement for the commission to have inspectors in casinos around-the-clock and made the Division of Gaming Enforcement responsible for certifying gaming revenue. The Division of Gaming Enforcement also took over responsibility for registering casino employees and non-gaming vendors, licensing gaming vendors, and handling all patron complaints"

I wonder what you think the reasons for deregulating the AC casino industry is all about and how does it help it's competitiveness? Also there is no longer AC Casino Control Commission: it was abolished and is now in the hands of the state.  Funny timing I thought. AC casinos were really struggling to survive because of huge competition  from casinos in neighboring states plus a recession. Several shut down. Seemingly another huge casino in AC would be the last thing other casinos needed. Interestingly, all these changes to AC casino industry happened when new casino called Revel was looking for financing, after Morgan Stanley, it's primary owner, pulled out. Well, Governor Christie came to the rescue announcing the State of NJ will invest $260 million in the stalled project. Then NJ lawmakers introduced new bills to deregulate casino industry in order to help other casinos compete adequately and vuala: Revel opened a few months ago and other casinos do not complain about lost revenues.  Of course it could be just a coincidence and things are simply improving in AC. BTW, visited Revel a few weeks ago and what a fabulous place it is!!!!! Had dinner with my wife at Amada. It was great! Even played VP for a few hours with limited success. So what say you?

Not sure about DaBurglar's views, but here is my limited experience with Revel.
 
I received a letter from one of their VPs, introducing himself, and saying that he would like for me to stop by the new place on my next trip to AC. I had a Harrahs 7Star event coming up in AC, so while there, I walked down to see Revel. There were signs all over AC, saying Revel would 'match your current status at any other casino". I was intrigued.
 
When I arrived,I went to the Players Card area. There were about 100 people in line. I went to the desk, showed my 7Star card to one of the 'suits' there, and asked if I could speak to an Executive Host about their offer. He told me to get in line with everyone else. I told him that I was 7Star with Harrah's/Caesars, and he said 'So what? The end of the line is down that way". I said adios, and left.
 
When I returned home, I dropped an EMail to the VP that had previously written me, and shared my experience with him. He called my house within 10 minutes of my Email. I imagine he got all my info from some pilfered client list from Harrah's. He apologized profusely, saying they were really having trouble with customer service. In fact, he said, he would not be surprised if the current Revel management wasn't replaced soon. So, unless they get on the ball in a hurry, they will be a bust, in my opinion.
 
As far as the loss of the Gaming Commission, I have said before, you now have the fox in the hen house. I was raised in Chicago, and if there was one thing that I learned, it is that the politicians will flock to where the money is, often at the expense of the paying public.   

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