Ever Contact a State Gaming Commission?

[spxChrome]

I wonder has anyone actually every contacted any state gaming commision for anything?  If so how did they respond or act?  What exactly are their responsibilities? We always hear to contact them but are they even responsible for player claims?  It seems the phone would be ringing off the hook about machines not being fair, loosing all the time never got a royal out of x number of hands even though the math says I was suppose to have x number.
 
I have only heard of one case where a lady contacted them because she felt that the VP machine gave her the same card on the draw as she discarded.  She felt the machine did this on a couple of occasions (I dobut it) but she called them anyways and she told them that and they responded by saying that was not something they investigated and she would have to take it up with the casino. 
 
So it sounds like they are just open to theft, payouts, maintenance licenses.  I don't even think they would entertain player allegations?  I don't know they may be the nicest in the world but I have never dealt with them so I am just wondering if anyone has ever had any contact with them and how it played out.  The person above is all I have ever heard.
 

[DaBurglar]

I spoke to this very point a while past in one of my posts, how the gaming commission in Nevada DOES NOT just drop everything and investigate or formally respond to player complaints, simply because as you said, it does in fact happen ALL THE TIME.  This is why many of us believe (choose to believe) that a few or even many VP machines might be slightly rigged because iin order for the gaming commission to find out they must examine the INDIVIDUAL machine itself to discover the cheating, which is not a likely happening in the normal course of things.   IF, and it is a big IF, a LOT of people (say 200-300) called and complained in a very short period of time about a specific machine at a specific casino, THAT might prompt a looksie from the commission. But the fact is, they are busier than a one armed paper hanger with the normal course of business, and a lot of faith is put into these casinos NOT risking their licenses by doing anything untoward. I have a few friends on the Las Vegas metro Police force who have shared with me their interaction with the gaming commission agents and what they have learned from their experiences working with and around them on various situations....much like CAsino security workers, gaming agents DO NOT mingle or interact much with the general society, and tend to be loners.  This is a job requirement which they tell all prospective agents they must adhere to while they are employed at the gaming comission;   they must remain above reproach and cannot open themselves up to anything through relationships with other people or the general public, anyone who can and does frequent a casino as a customer. Both the Nevada and AC (New Jersey) commissions have numbers we can call to complain or to get info, but it is usually a long wait and very little is usually done from phone calls.  If you have a serious problem, you are better off visiting the actual offices during business hours.....it is harder to blow off a live actual person than a phone caller. The Nevada commission receives an estimated 300 plus applicants for every available position, and like everyone else, they have been hit by the lame economy over the years past, including state budget cuts and demands to do more with less.

[ravenbynight111]

This was my point in another post. nice read

[Onenickelmiracl]

In PA for example, each casino has 7 gaming agency employees on site 24/7/365. Many other states may as well.

[ginfre]

Your commentary is not necessarily a validation of how gamblers feel, but it is a validation of how gamblers think.  Gamblers tend to think there are subjected to rigging, but, in the end, will overcome their negative thinking by feeling as though they are not looking at the experience fairly, and wind up, once again, back into the Casino. For, on this next visit, you see, the circumstances will be different, as they think.  Were I to capitalize think and feel here, the punch would be stronger, but I don't think I really need to capitalize the action, do any of you? Many 'laws' come into play here, and anyone, in my opinion, who might place casinos above any reproach is simply not seeing reality.  On another topic here, a frequent contributor spoke of finding their own niche, that this is a good thing for all.  This phenomenon of iffy machines and casino practices is part and parcel to that, also.  IF all machines were tied to enforcement computers for constant and consistent monitoring, then, notwithstanding any collusion in that view, then the suspicion(s) could be largely erased.  And, THIS COULD BE DONE!  Speaking for myself, I'd even sacrifice a 99.56% payout to a 99.55%, to pay the cost.  But, we are the gamblers, and that is too simple a fix for a suspicion, isn't it. I have a good feeling that I've said enough.  Good topic.

[DaBurglar]

First off, the fact that Pennsylvania casinos actually have 7 agency "workers" on site in each casino 24/7 is surprising, and if so then they must have a pretty substantial budget allocated to their states gaming agency.  In AC, each casino has a "desk" clearly labelled "Gaming Commision", and the state office is on the Boardwalk nestled in a building between bally's and Resorts.  But if you bother to notice, almost all those "desks" in the AC casino for the gaming commission are rarely staffed and if they are there is only 1 person there.  I've nosed around and actually wheeled myself into the Gaming Commision Office a couple of times, asking questions and taking pamphlets and literature.  One of these days I am even going to fill out an application for employment, not in a serious attempt to get a job but more for the heck of it and to find out what that process is like.  But here is some more of what i do know and have found out on my own, some of this has been stated before but it is worth repeating: While I still have overall faith that MOST of the video poker games I have encountered have PROBABLY been 100% legit, I am today more suspicious than ever of a few more recent experiences, specifically in AC, that I am inclined to believe had Video Poker machines calibrated to deal zero values hands at an abnormal rate.  I base this upon my own, fairly meticulous record keeping of my play, as well as the input from a group of friends and family members who also play Video Poker in AC who, quite suprisingly and independently, have experienced eerily similar Negative results in basically the same AC establishments over the same time period.  More on this in a moment... Let me say here, as I did previously in other posts, that Today's gaming commisions in places like AC, and especially in Nevada, are struggling just like all state agencies with budget cuts and a stale business climate;  asked to do more with less, they are focused on "prority" issues, such as underage gambling, money laundering (both drug cartels and terrorists have used casinos world wide for their nefarious plots), investigating employee backgrounds and vetting both pre and post hiring, and a host of other issues (did you know that casinos have one of the highest rates of drug abuse amongst employee population?  Now you know how all those dealers stay awake and alert, or pass the time over hours of SLOW non-action!)  Investigating player complaints of "rigged machines" is wayyyyyy down on the bottom of their to-do list,   Even still, I am inclined to trust Nevada casinos more than AC, simply because you are talking about an entire STATE's economic livlihood, not a backwater redheaded stepchild that AC is often regarded by the rest of the state of New Jersey.  Furthermore, while the economy has hurt both Vegas and AC, Ac has suffered far more crippling and serious blows, to the point now, with Revel coming online in April and promptly Cannibalizing the already shrinking AC gaming "pie" while at the same time grossly missing its own targets (Revel is supposed to be clearing 50 million per month in revenue and is actually barely hitting 17 million per month as of Spetember.)  In NYC the recent opening of the "Racino" in Aqueduct has further highlighted just how bad things are for AC, in that, for the months of July, AUgust and now Spetember, the NYC Racino has grossed more revenue than ALL 12 AC gaming properties Combined!   it's ridiculous how bad AC has become at simply capturing the market share that should rightfully be its own by default.  AC has so much potential yet they SUCK at what they do for a whole slew of reasons, and when you add to this dismal equation the fact that the 4 Caesars properties (Caesars, Showboat, BAllys and HArrahs) are drowning in debt because of the misguided actions of its Behemoth-sized corporate HQ, the setting is ripe for the properties in AC to get desperate....desperate to the point that, faced with oblivion, they just might try to squeeze more revenue from their anemic businesses by taking Video Poker, which they regard as a neccesary evil, and skimming more dollars from the take than they legitimately should be capturing. Before you say "IMPOSSIBLE!"  "NEVER!"  just think about it for a second....try to actually map out how, if this is true, a casino would get "Caught" perpetrating such a thing.  Try to describe the scenario playing out where they would "LOSE THEIR LICENSE", the supposed consequence that prevents them from messing with their video poker machines in the first place.  Dont just quote Section 14 of the NEVADA gaming regulation as proof.....try and describe how an overworked agency would hear, amidst the hundreds of calls each week of "rigged" games from disgrunteld degenerate gamblers, a specific case of a specific video poker machine being rigged and decide to investigate that specific machine.  Describe how the agency would go about seizing the machine and then, go about the business of shutting down the property and in the process damaging all other properties by extension and , in turn, slit their own throat since their very source of existence is the casinos themselves?   Rather than publish my recent gaming results in AC here, I will make a new post after this one so that it is not all run-on together.....

[DaBurglar]

Since September 5 (right after LABOR day and the end of the "summer period", coincidentally....) I have played four times in AC, four trips averaging 4 days each.  Most of this was at Caesars properties, such that I earned about 3,000 points on the total rewards system.  That supposedly represents about 30,000 dollars coin in.  Forgetting the expected loss rate of about 3% (assuming I played machines/games with at least a 97% return, which I know I have) and instead allowing a 5% loss rate (which I am too skilled a player to ever expect to lose that much, but I am allowing this to further my point here)....I should have expected to lose about $1500 total in earning those 3,000 total rewards points, but lets say I was REALLY unlucky and crappy and instead lost $2500, which would be appaling and maybe suspicious in itself but still proof of nothing.  My actual total losses in earning those 3,000 reward points over the past month and a half were.......$5,200!!!!  I sh*t you not.....I mean I could not hit, nor did I hit ANYTHING of substance or importance, I repeatedly had stretches of 25-30 or more hands of absolutely nothing.    Now I mentioned others whom I associate with as friends and family who had similar results.  Five friends who I would say are actually BETTER players than myself, along with my Brother, his wife, and our cousin, (8 other people) ALL expereinced various degrees of similarly ABYSSMAL playing over essentially the same time period in essentially the same casinos.  My brother and his wife only played about half their budget in Caesars properties, and played the other half at Trump and "only" lost about 2% at Trump but were at almost 18% in Video Poker losses at the Caesars properties.  One of my friends cited a loss rate of almost 30% in Video Poker at Bally's and Caesars in AC!!! Ok, let me here state that this of course is NOT conclusive proof of anything, but we all know, of course that we can neither prove nor disprove 100% that any and all Video Poker machines we play are legit or rigged.  It is a "trust", is it not?   Well, right now, as regards AC anyway, that trust is very shaky in some circles and with some machines.  The likelihood of ALL of us having such horrible results at the same time in such a similar manner is really troubling..... I am not saying EVERY video poker machine is rigged, that would be stupid, ridiculous and OBVIOUS.  My friends who have or currently are working in the gaming industry have stated that, if a casino were to "juke" their Video Poker machines, they would carefully select SOME and accordingly tweak or alter the hand expectation rates, using the USER DEFINED INTERFACE (or CODE) tables that allow casinos to set up and alter menus and even hand frequencies.  They need to have other machines functioning normally occasionally dealing Royals so that on the surface, things appear normal to players, so that a player who is playing a rigged machine sees someone else hitting a big one and just woefully assumes he is unlucky.  And for those of you who believe it is IMPOSSIBLE for a casino to do this, that they get machines READY TO USE straight from the factory and cant alter squat, then ask yourself this:  IF a Gaming commisision agent wanted to "CHECK" a video poker machine, just what exactly would they look at to determine if it is OK?  A user display showing how the machine is SET would yield exactly what a time pressed agent would want and need to see, NOT "Lets load this machine up and take it back to Gaming Control so we can take it apart and examing its code line by line...."!   I need to rest, but let me finish with this tidbit:   Towards the end of my last trip to AC last week, when I was clearly furstrated and suspicious, I went into "Bunker" mode and took my remaing bankroll and started only playing 1 credit per hand in an effort to just MAXIMIZE the total number of hands played while noting results of interest, namely any Quads or Royals.   The "ABysmality" continued unabated for the most part.....This in fact is what prompted me to write this post, the consistent and prolonged nature of these results in these casinos at these games, on top of everything else going on and all the things I have seen and had told to me (hearsay or otherwise, it still counts for consideration.)

[jazzman12]

Is it possible that there are any Class 3 video poker machines in United States casinos that are "rigged" to pay less than the return % indicated by the pay table?It might be naive to assume that there are absolutely none (particularly in small, privately owned establishments that have them or perhaps even some smaller Indian properties). The electronics and computer chips in these machines today certainly make the ability to "re-program" them pretty realistic for anyone with a working understanding of microchips, electronics, and computer programming.But that aside, it is absolutely illogical, in fact almost inconceivable, to believe that any rigged machine would be at a Caesar's Corporation property (unless it was perhaps an isolated incident by a rogue technician/employee who was seeking to personally profit in some way).Caesar's is now again a publicly traded company with stockholders. These stockholders had almost $2 billion in equity in the company at the beginning of this year (it is now down to $750 million due to the stock falling throughout the year). Even though primarily owned by Hamlet Holdings, significant stockholders include financial firms such as BofA, Citi, and Goldman Sachs.Caesar's is pretty much 100% a gaming company - with 50+ casinos in the US and abroad. Even one, single, documented case of a "rigged" video poker machine could essentially put the company out of business, and not just Chap 11  - but out of business permanently due to likely inability to hold any state gaming licenses in the future.Caesar's is also heavily investing in expansion (some may argue foolishly) in gaming in the US (Ohio casinos, possible Delaware casino, etc.). If the company was barely hanging on and going to inevitably fold anyway, maybe there might be slight logic to considering cheating their customers before the final crash and burn, but this is clearly a company that seeks to survive long-term (even if its total debt load may catch up with it).If Caesar's sought to increase casino revenue (or even just bottom line profit) there are 35 other things it could do (legally) and would do before rigging a video poker machine. Number one on the list would simply be reduce slot payouts. Most states allow for as little as an 80% minimum slot machine return, and Caesar's is currently paying out over 90% across all slot denominations and properties. They are leaving 10%, legally entitled money, out there, and there is exponentially more $$ spent at slots over video poker nationwide.Also, why rig a poker machine when you can legally make additional return by simply adjusting the pay table. Anyone who frequents Caesar's properties knows there are many 7-5 DDB machines and others that return 95%-96% even with perfect play. Even competitive forces aren't necessitating eliminating these lower pay machines from the casino floor. Caesar's can simply change more 8-5 DDB machines to 7-5 DDB machines to increase profit. Sure, the people who frequent this site might balk at playing them, but 95% of the novice gaming public still will (and even members of this site would if that was all that was made available to them at every casino). Furthermore, if I was rigging a machine, I would have better pay tables than most Caesar's properties have. Since the pay table would be false anyway, I would have most pay tables at 98.5%-99% to encourage more cash play at these machines, rather than discouraging people from playing with 95% (lousy) pay tables.Bottom line, I empathize with the frustration of prolonged "cold streaks" and bankrolls disappearing in the amount of time that just do not seem feasible. I have had my fair share of 1.5 year cold streaks at Caesar's properties over the past 20+ years, rather than just a 1.5 month cold streak, but while anything is theoretically possible, I, honestly, would trust the stated pay table and RNG of a Class 3 video poker machine at a Caesar's US casino over just about any other business practice that I might come into contact with at any other US corporation today.

[DaBurglar]

Jazzman, you make perfect sense and logic.  That is how I still choose to view the vast majority of major casinos, I CHOOSE to still have faith and believe that most things are kosher and legit etc.  But, I am also allowing for the fact that STRANGER more improbable things have happened than simple rigging of video poker. You and I look at this from the vantage of players who know and understand the game, and look at the situation objectively.  But, if you put yourself in the position of certain management at these locations that are sinking and where people's jobs are at stake, who knows how desperate someone may get.   Your thoughts about other ways to increase revenue actually are also being done but in many cases it still isnt enough.  If casinos could get rid of video poker altogether they would do it and replace it with 1 cent slots, but that would be too much of a shock so the next best thing is get video poker to PAY like slots.   Actually, my point really is, from my posts above, HOW would you and I really KNOW that the gaming comm in AC would uncover something like rigging a certain number of video poker machines?  I'm almost certain, from what I know about the actual PROCESS of investigating specific machines, that a casino would have enough of a chance to "fix" any wayward machine back to the required level of play before the commissiom could seize it....but again, how would a commission even GET to the point of investigating a casino for this??  I dont see it happening often enough or with enough surprise to deter a casino from messing with a few machines ... and even if a casino somehow actually did get caught, wouldnt it be more likely fixed "hush hush" with a fine and a period of double-secret probation before a gaming commision would damage one of its "consituents" long term economic health?