Paytables mean NOTHING

[Vman96]

Ok, I'm convinced. The Casinos in AC are all cheating.  So, what  city besides Vegas should we play in?

Reno, Tunica, Chicagoland, St. Louis, Council Bluffs, Detroit and Denver metro to name a few decent places. Places not as decent include Ohio and Pennsylania. Most of the nation has non-rigged video poker. And rigging video poker is also against NJ state law, but we have conspiracy theorists on this forum from there.

[tshock]

 It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.  Of course its against the law in NJ to rig machines.  However, in NJ they can change chips to a minimum level which is what they do.  It tightens up the machine and gives less winning hands.  Its only against the law if they go below that lower limit. 

[BillyJoe]

 It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.  Of course its against the law in NJ to rig machines.  However, in NJ they can change chips to a minimum level which is what they do.  It tightens up the machine and gives less winning hands.  Its only against the law if they go below that lower limit. 
I am not convinced that, in New Jersey, it is against the law to set up a Video Poker machine similar to a slot machine, as long as it meets the minimum payout percentages spelled out in the regulations. I remember reading in the NJ regs that they do not distinguish a VP game from a slot machine.  
 
Also, remember that the New Jersey Gaming Commission is no longer an independent agency, but rather an arm of the New Jersey State Revenue Board, the same folks that collect the taxes on the gaming profits.

[Vman96]

 It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.  Of course its against the law in NJ to rig machines.  However, in NJ they can change chips to a minimum level which is what they do.  It tightens up the machine and gives less winning hands.  Its only against the law if they go below that lower limit. 

For a slot machine that has no element of skill, you are absolutely correct. This is what every state does to change payout percentages of nonskilled slot machines. Well, newer machines can actually be changed via a server in several states now.

But NJ law implies that video poker return is based upon the paytable. It is implied by point 3 in § 13:69E-1.28A.

(g) A slot machine game that requires skilled strategy choices, such as video poker, shall:

1. Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play;

2. Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or

3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.

The only way point 3 is not violated is to use a random deck and have strategy derived by the only piece of information that they give, which is the paytable.

Note that NJ refers to video poker as a slot machine with skilled strategy choices. Most states lump video poker data with slot machine data in public revenue documents as well. But most other states have a clearer provision though by saying the machine must give an "accurate representation of a standard poker deck", so then maximum theoretical return is also solely determined by the paytable.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=tshock]  It has nothing to do with conspiracy theories.  Of course its against the law in NJ to rig machines.  However, in NJ they can change chips to a minimum level which is what they do.  It tightens up the machine and gives less winning hands.  Its only against the law if they go below that lower limit. 

For a slot machine that has no element of skill, you are absolutely correct. This is what every state does to change payout percentages of unskilled slot machines. Well, newer machines can actually be changed via a server in several states now.

But NJ law implies that video poker return is based upon the paytable. It is implied by point 3 in § 13:69E-1.28A.

(g) A slot machine game that requires skilled strategy choices, such as video poker, shall:

1. Have its theoretical TRP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play;

2. Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or

3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.

The only way point 3 is not violated is to use a random deck and have strategy derived by the only piece of information that they give, which is the pay table.

Note that NJ refers to video poker as a slot machine with skilled strategy choices. Most states lump video poker data with slot machine data in public revenue documents as well. But most other states have a clearer provision though by saying the machine must give an "accurate representation of a standard poker deck", so then maximum theoretical return is also solely determined by the paytable.[/QUOTE]
Yeah - it's that "accurate representation of a standard poker deck" phraseology missing from the NJ regs that makes me wonder.  
 
If they are using a chip that does not mimic a random 52 card shuffled deck, can they say that you still have enough info just from the paytable to formulate an optimal strategy for the machine that they provide you to play? They do not have to disclose how many winning combinations are present on the slot machines on the floor. Could they take this same position with the VP machines?

[Vman96]

If they are using a chip that does not mimic a random 52 card shuffled deck, can they say that you still have enough info just from the paytable to formulate an optimal strategy for the machine that they provide you to play? They do not have to disclose how many winning combinations are present on the slot machines on the floor. Could they take this same position with the VP machines?

No they can not. If the deck does not behave like a standard 52-card deck (53 cards w/Joker Poker), then optimal strategy will end up changing based on probabilities that certain cards will appear.

For example lets say you are playing 9/6 Jacks or Better and the machine is rigged to give 3s at twice the normal rate. Overall, this likely would bring the machine return down since Aces through Jacks are more valuable than a 3, but it will change optimal strategy vs. normal Jacks or B,etter. For example, if you are dealt 2456, you typically throw this away in Jacks or Better because trash is valued higher than an inside straight draw in JoB. But if a 3 is twice as likely to appear, then it will behave like an outside straight draw instead of an inside straight draw, so 2456 would become the correct hold.

And as for slot machines, you're right they typically don't have to disclose anything. A slot machine also typically has no skill decisions, but if they do, those must be disclosed in virtually every state. I have seen a couple of older IGT slot machines like this. "Frequent Flyer" is coming to my mind right now. They had a "baggage bonus" that allowed three opportunities of a prize. You could pass on the first two before being forced to taking the third. The game always told you what was the best decision longterm. It was similar wording to following: "It is best to keep bags (insert number here) credits or greater."

Personally I am all about transparency, so I feel like slot machines should also have probabilities of winning combinations and overall returns listed. But casinos will insist on not doing that, because with these brand new slot machines, games like 6/5 JoB are great compared to those!

[DaBurglar]

Wow.....I must say, TSHOCK has ennunciated and laid out a descriptive scenario that EXCEEDS anything I attempted to communicate with the forum since I joined up and began noticing and experiencing the crappy sessions in AC.    I believe TSHOCK actually has a more plausible and better argument than I myself ever did.....well done TSHOCK. Instead of my theory that AC is actually rigging (i.e. "cheating") some (not all, SOME) of its VP machines, TSHOCK has defined a scenario that involves the actual CHIPS simply being replaced at periods of time to suit the casino's short term objectives vis a vis Revenue from its VP machines.   A key component of TSHOCK's scenario has to do with the definition of a "Slot machine" versus VP machines, and whether the lower limit of SLOT machines money that gets returned to players under New Jersey Regs supercedes what the actual paytables on VP machines say should be returned over time!  I have adhered to the scenario (and I still believe in it) that VP machines in today's typical American Casinos have, amongst their various menu options, various utilities and menu options and user-defined tables that CAN (if used and/or accessed) allow casino techs and slot management to manually set many parameters that influence a VP machine's performance and results.   I have stated that the existence of such utilities and options and menus does NOT automatically mean they are used or even KNOWN to the casinos or its people.  They may sit dormant and unused (even HIDDEN) for the life of the machine......OR NOT..... In times of vibrant economies and huge revenues, casinos need to do NOTHING except keep the doors open, the power running and the BOOZE flowing, to ensure profitable months and rising stock prices and huge bonuses for the management.   It is only when economies tank, as they did in 2007, and the resulting fall in revenues are compounded by grievous, stupid, greed-inspired errors in business planning and investment, that the spectre of possible nefarious actions by casino management rears its ugly head.....and in New Jersey's case, it appears that it might not even qualify as actual "cheating" or rigging, or any other "NEFARIOUS" act (as Billyjoe and TSHOCK and a few others have explained); instead, in AC, it may even fall within the bounds of accepted regulations to have VP machines set well below the standards of other markets (like Vegas/Nevada).....that is what people like Roveer, myself and others who have played in AC as well as other markets for extended periods of time, and have seen the STARK, dramatic difference(s), are attemtping to determine and/or prove or disprove.

[jetermacaw]

I was at Harrah's AC on 4/23, had pretty go luck for me on the 3 9/6 machines, caught a couple 4oak and straight flush, up about $400.00. Now i go to my new favorite, QQs, they only have MP so I play 5 hand DBP for 5c, u can play 3 hand but then its min bet is .25, too rich for my blood.  U know how it goes your up with a QQ, then your back down, then back up, goes this way for about 2 hours. Now I'm waiting for a drink and I don't want to but any more coin in, I fall under the max 30 coin bet and just played what was left  i think 15, bam full house on the draw, next hand 3 oak, still betting bare min. well 21 winning hands in a row later I'm back over 110 credits. I go back to max. bet 30 coin and its gone in 4 hands. U can't make this chit up, that machine knew the difference min and max bets.

[jetermacaw]

What also is suspect to me is how many people play QQs without playing  max bet, if u don't play the extra coin u not playing QQs. Very strange.

[Vman96]

What also is suspect to me is how many people play QQs without playing  max bet, if u don't play the extra coin u not playing QQs. Very strange.



Partly because half of them probably don't understand how quick quads even works. Even it took me a couple of reads to understand the rules the first time I learned about it. It's better than playing quick quads for 6 credits/hand and not understanding/realizing what you are playing. Recently I saw a woman play quick quads, get dealt 777 and made a quick quad. She had no idea what that meant until I and others explained it to her. She was giving away more money to the house by not realizing she was playing quick quads.